Podcast appearance
The Marriage You Protect: Building Unity When the World Pulls You Apart | Pesa Shayo
Immaculate Chinecherem and Pesa Shayo examine family expectations, culture, loyalty, communication, and the intentional work of protecting marriage unity.
- Podcast
- Beyond the Draft
- Host
- Immaculate Chinecherem
- Published
- Guest
- Pesa Shayo
Listen
Beyond the Draft
Episode overview
About this conversation
Immaculate Chinecherem and Pesa Shayo examine family expectations, culture, loyalty, communication, and the intentional work of protecting marriage unity.
The conversation covers the pressures surrounding marriage, family expectations and culture, loyalty conflicts and in-law relationships, healthy boundaries and communication, faith and intentional commitment, building a marriage that stands together.
Key takeaways
Marriage principles discussed
- The pressures surrounding marriage.
- Family expectations and culture.
- Loyalty conflicts and in-law relationships.
- Healthy boundaries and communication.
- Faith and intentional commitment.
- Building a marriage that stands together.
Chapters
Conversation chapters
Full transcript
Beyond the Draft transcript
Transcript note: Published with permission and formatted for readability. This transcript was automatically generated from the original public recording or caption track. Speaker names are omitted where the source did not identify them, and minor transcription errors may remain.
00:00Introduction and guest background
Many relationships don't break down because love disappears. They slowly became strained
by outside voices, family expectations, cultural differences, loyalty conflicts and conversations
that were never properly handled. Hello everyone! Welcome to another inspiring episode of Beyond
the Draft, the show where we explore the restorities behind remarkable people and uncover the life
lesson that really makes it into the headlines. Today's conversation is one every couple and
Genuinely today is Pesa Shayo, author, speaker and co-founder of Live Your Best Marriage. Through his book, podcast and marriage resources, he helps cross-cultural Christians cope with strating communication, establish healthy boundaries, navigate in-law relationships and build marriage rooted in unity, and then
co-posturing communication, establish healthy boundaries, navigate in-law relationships and build marriage rooted in unity.
Other than division.
Freista it's really a privilege to have you here come around this day to visit us.
Please can you have the floor and introduce yourself to our listeners?
Thank you very much Ima I'm very excited to be here
and thank you for putting up this opportunity for me to come and be of help to your listeners.
The name of your show is Beyond the Draft. My first draft of my understanding of marriage was very
sincere, all I knew was that I needed to work hard. So it was very sincere but I can tell you today
it was very incomplete. I had to revise and revise and revise and create a different draft every time.
I believed a great husband just had to work hard pay the bills remain faithful and as long
As long as he was carrying all these responsibilities, he was doing the right thing, there's nothing
else he was required to do.
But my wife came from a place where they also believed that not only is it important to provide,
you also need to be there emotionally so that they are not feeling lonely.
And he got to a point that literally was about to break our marriage.
It was very painful and we call that our painful chapter of our marriage but the good thing about
it is, the story never ended there. Instead, we started to revise, to change things, to understand
love especially for me I stopped measuring myself just by how much I worked and produced
and just how much I was able to provide financially and I started seeing okay
How is what I'm doing? How is it affecting my kids? How is this affecting my wife? How is this affecting other people in the community?
That by itself was a big, big change for me and I'm glad I was able to go through that.
This is really incredible honestly. Okay thank you so much again once again for being here with us
and before we dive into what we have today, let's throw together. Let's take a small walk
and if every married couple had to frame one sentence on their living room walk
that could save their marriage during difficult season, what would you say?
You know, I will just say that it is very important for couples
to start, especially if they're arguing all the time. It's a very difficult season. I will tell
pause before you start becoming defensive again as normal. You know there is a way arguments happen in
our relationship. She says something he says something and it just goes back and forth.
Before you say your part pause stop it pause and then be curious and what i mean be curious
I
versus the person you are always used to which is the enemy that you're constantly fighting for,
fighting against and this is something that I had to learn the hard way. That as we have our regular
arguments i need to learn how to pause and see things from her point of view because I will never
look at things from her point of view. I was always thinking about the next thing I need to say
to defend myself. That always brought more arguments and for all the men out there thinking
oh no, is he telling me to be weak? I'm not saying you're gonna be weak actually be stronger
because now you'll be fighting for things that you really want like your family to stay together
things that you really want your kids to grow in the same house not that your kids are growing
This is it? Okay, let me now ask you again. Let's imagine you erased one common might about marriage forever. Which one would you choose and why has it caused so much damage?
If I was going to erase one thing from a marriage, from my marriage, is I will erase the idea
06:29The pressures surrounding marriage
that I went into my marriage meaning well.
I was meaning well.
I really meant well but I did not know that I was carrying a lot of assumptions and what
What I mean was, without even knowing, I thought if this is what I'm saying, if this is how
we do things where I came from that is how things are done.
I did not know that I was making an assumption that because we do things our way, that's the
right way and that's how things are needed to be done.
Not knowing she also had her own way of thinking because she also came from another culture
that they do things differently. So if I had to do it again, I would learn to know that this is just my way of doing things
but there's other ways of doing the same thing and be okay accepting different ways as long as we are getting
the job done not be so stuck in my way to the point where I'm alienating everybody around me
because I believe I'm 100% right.
The chapter that a lot of us will skip but we really need to read is the chapter of listening.
Listen!
Okay, I'm here, I'm listening.
That chapter and a lot of my friends, we always job that chapter because we are willing to talk
and talk, but when somebody is talking we are thinking about the answer.
Not listening to what they're saying. And when you are dealing in a marriage
you start realizing how people can be very resentful. They resent you not because
you are mean or bad, because you don't listen to their point. So nobody
wants to go through their whole life or their whole marriage where they bring up
I love all these answers and I think yes let's go back to the main show and see what we have.
Okay, I can say that I love to begin with your personal journey because you know every
meaningful mission usually begins with a personal experience. What experiences in your own cross-cultural
marriage inspires you and Whitney to create Live Your Best Marriage? And where did you realize this
message there to reach other couples.
I go home and sleep, and then too I go to work.
So it's like constant.
And my wife at that time had gotten our third baby.
And at that time she was just tired
because I've done this for so many years
and she thought that she was basically living alone
because during the day I'm sleeping,
at night I go and I'm just doing that every day.
And the one day that I'm off, I'm sleeping.
So she doesn't feel like she even have a husband at home.
and at that time she was bringing her problems.
Oh, you know I don't see you enough.
You are not here.
I don't see you.
I'm raising these kids alone
and me and my friends,
I had a lot of friends at that time
and me and my friends,
I would go ahead and tell them
and they would always remind me
that she's ungrateful.
If only she was grateful.
If only she saw the sacrifice you're doing,
she will appreciate
because you're doing this for the family.
Now, this made sense to me
because at that time I was like,
Oh my God, I am! She's not listening. She's so mean. She's so rude. She's not.
But the truth is I wasn't the one listening.
Eventually we nearly went through a divorce but I was able to pause.
We were able to really restart rebuilding our marriage through weekly time.
A lot of prayer. A lot of honest conversations and it did not take a day. This took a while.
But the reason why we are doing this is because there's a lot of people who are just like us
Good people love each other, come from different cultures but they don't know what they don't know
And what they don't know is sometimes they have so many assumptions that they think
That all these problems are because they're not meant for each other
Or they because they are men because you did not get the right woman
or because she's not respectful.
All this and you've come to find out no, it's because number one, you are not…
She stopped being your friend now she's an enemy
and you guys are not united
And then we will show you how to be united
especially when it comes to money, relatives, work
even just parenting your kids that's a big one
all these things
A lot of people know they believe they can do it
but they don't have the information
and if you're dealing with a situation where you are coming from two different cultures,
I think we believe it gets more complicated because somebody's culture is literally about
12:57Family expectations and culture
their identity. And if you say something like if you are putting down their culture they
really feel that you are putting down who they are, they feel like you are rejecting them.
Somebody might be saying oh you know i don't like that food or your food stinks. They just
I just think they're talking about food, but to somebody else that is their culture.
How they were raised, how they saw their mom cooking.
There's a lot of things which are tied to something even like food.
So how do you handle a situation like that?
You love each other, but at the same time, how do you handle things like this?
So we are doing what we are doing to help other couples who are in situations like this
and they might never have had even this kind of information
as they're trying to navigate their marriage life.
Honestly, when it comes to marriage I would be like,
okay, marriage is a bit complicated
and it's not how the beta-cola sounds that it's there.
that's there, it still stays.
and they are constantly bringing you closer
and just remember when somebody is dating, about to get married
They are always doing things to bring them closer
They're doing what we call connection
They are calling each other, sending messages
Constantly talking to each other
Cannot wait to see each other
All these things are bringing connections
But after five years of marriage
They are doing the opposite
Everything they are doing is the opposite
and then they expect from all these arguments and fights and name calling and all this at the end of
the day to be close. I don't think so, so they feel like okay the best thing is this is not working out
let me go and look for another one while you did not work on yourself so you're basically
transferring this lack of skills to the next relationship and it just continues the cycle
continues.
Oh, honestly that is it.
And yeah, I'm so happy that I'm talking about this conversation with you about marriage because
anyone that knows Emma we know that my first book was the autopsy of marriage and honestly
I can tell you that, ooh, I love talking about marriage, relationship and all this.
Yes, yes, yes.
It's…and thank you for having me here because I just want to let your audience know,
your listeners know that they are doing things every day if they're married
or even if they are before marriage.
They are doing things to bring each other closer.
Don't expect that you will, for example right now if someone is dating, they'll be calling each other
Those five text messages that you've sent in the last one hour, they bring people closer
Don't think those are just you're sending
Those are some of the things that you're looking forward to for the next one
And even if you are in an argument when you love somebody and at the same time you view them as a friend
that's the most important thing here. When you view them as a friend,
you are more likely to listen to their side of the story. You're like, you know what? Yes!
Just tell me more about what you think because even if you think they are upsetting you but
because they're your friend, you are more likely to listen. But if they are your enemy,
you are quickly to judge them. So we like to remind couples that don't forget that this is
I don't know if you have had most cases of this, and meanwhile,
His wife begins believing she is competing for faithless in his life.
Neither pesos is actually the enemy.
I think Yeats both leave every conversation feeling or hurt.
How can couples recognize when they have accidentally start fighting each other
instead of confronting the real issue together?
Perfect, thank you very much and I come from a family where we are collective.
We basically are families, it's what you say family is not only just the mom and dad and kids
It's also their uncles and aunts and sisters and cousins and nephews. Everybody's seen as family
So when you come from a place like that and you also believe that that is more family than your
nuclear family, the new family that you're building, that can bring a lot of problems
and also some people will say, you know what?
Your new wife. Your wife is not really your family because blood, they'll say blood is thicker than water
But what they don't want to tell you is the fact that their mom came also from another family to create a new family
That's why they are coming from their new family, right?
So they don't want to talk about where their mom came from
So what I'm trying to say here is there's something we call transfer of loyalty.
19:26Loyalty conflicts and in-law relationships
And because we work with Christian couples and just basically lots of couples, but mostly Christian couples
We know that we are told that the Bible says we too ended up becoming one
You left your family, you left and create two of you became one
One unit also at the same time. The Bible talks about how to honor and respect your parents
You need to own and respect your parents
So now that becomes a you're dealing with two things
Your two became one but at the same time you are supposed to honor your parents
so what we are saying is you are not disrespecting your mom and dad especially if you come from a family where you cannot say anything
and the end of the day, that decision will be affecting her and your new family more.
Let's say you get into a deal, you have your dad or your mom or your cousin,
they get in a deal, you're buying land and then that you didn't tell your wife
or you didn't tell your husband, you just took money on the side and you gave them.
They bought land but that deal did not go well. You lost the money.
you thought you guys gonna double it, now you lost it. Now who is going through the consequences
of that decision? Is it your cousin maybe but also your wife or your spouse who did not even know this
thing was existing they never know they are just all of a sudden they're being told we need to cut
down on our budget because we don't have money or we are being evicted because we cannot pay rent
but they did not even participate in this whole conversation. So, they had nothing to do with it
but they are dealing with the consequences of it. So, realizing that and most of us will
not want to go through that I would not want to suffer the consequences of something that
I had nothing to do with. I feel like that's unfair and that's what sometimes you are making
you're putting other people through which is they suffer the consequences if there's any consequence
but they never had any input in making the decision. So that's one thing,
but that does not mean you are dishonoring your parents by saying no. You can be very tactful,
you can bring maybe they can instead of talking to your dad directly,
you can talk through your mom and then your mom can be not talk to him because sometimes
that's the only way people talk. There's different dynamics in different families
Yes, I think when… yes, yes, yes. I think I can put this what you said in terms of being open like openness in marriage
I think that sounds well right?
Okay, but you know when it comes to being open, I don't know.
I'm not saying words.
You know sometimes even though we say let's be open so be open to your spouse or to your
partner.
I think in most cases we should consider also the partner that we have because okay let me
and also when they are around, be like this is my, this is my momma, this is yes just call them and their every cousin is a brother.
Yes yep yep and even uh even sometimes the in-laws.
And they are brothers.
Yes, yes. And sometimes you can even somebody can be very they are not you're not that related
maybe there were just friends like maybe your dad and their dad were friends because now you're
living in the big city together now they are their brother or their sister now but if you
go back to the village you're not really related it's just because maybe your parents were friends
Honestly, I have so many of them that are there.
If you shake how many people come by brothers, I just have only two brothers and I have like 15 brothers.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
I totally understand.
And…
Yes, I totally understand.
I love Africa anyway.
I think we're born.
in London. Yes, yes! And that as long… See this is the issue sometimes when if you meet,
if you get married to somebody who is everything they're doing just like you you might really
not have some of these conversations may be needed but most of them will not be needed
because what you are assuming or their assumptions that you are making like for example, their
The assumption that although this person is not related to you by blood, they can still be called brother.
They are the person who also knows that it's true.
So there's no really a lot of convincing them or explaining to them.
They already know that this is how it is.
You're not going to have a lot of disagreement on that issue.
But if you're having somebody even from another country,
25:54Healthy boundaries and communication
one from Nigeria and then from Ghana,
Although you are both from West Africa, there might be differences and that's where the issue comes.
If you just assume that I don't really need to learn and change my, as the show says,
my draft, change my draft, I already have my first draft, I'm going to create a second draft
and third draft if I don't change and start rebuilding, I might end up having this disagreement
is not because I'm a bad, like, I mean something wrong.
It's just the fact that we are just talking
two different things.
It's like two little different things,
although we think we are talking about the same thing.
Yeah.
And one of the things I had to learn
is I was also believing that when you're honest,
the story was it's some things you have to hide.
So basically, you cannot be honest
because if you're honest 100% that means things will go wrong.
So now you are becoming this person who is always lying basically,
you are always lying because you are telling a little bit of truth here,
a little bit of a lie here but you're just managing people.
It's like everybody around you is a kid and you are just giving them
a little bit of a truth, a little bit of a lie here
and then all this becomes like you're creating this story basically
but because you are afraid to tell them the truth which is what?
Whatever happened, because everybody's afraid that if I really say it
they are not gonna like me or they are not gonna love me
or they're gonna leave me or whatever
But sometimes from my experience it's better just to say
just get it out of the way. Now that's, I've lost a lot of people on that one.
Yeah. Okay. Then now, just as I was saying that, you know, when because of the kind of relationship
that we in Africa, we have, you know sometimes okay let me say like if you come to Nigeria,
mainly the evil side here, the evil part of Nigeria, you notice that this how we build
relationship. We have everybody, we have kinsmen and their brothers and all these people they watch us grow,
they contributed to the essence that most families it's where the auntie said it was the aunties yes
that train them in school you get it now when they now gets married the wife or maybe the
the partner, let me say the spouse, because it will not only be the wife, but in major
things is always the wife that we used to experience this case. So they'll be like you
know you have to be concentrating on your family, you know man I don't want to like
you are giving too much to the farm, you are giving too much to your family and
your auntie should go get a life, of course she should go get a life and
there she would be like in form of calculating what you give to your
and family, it's becoming an issue. So now do you think that still being openness, still
advisable in this kind of situation because the husband is actually doing what is right
but the wife is not getting it? You see when we talk about
It's always, and thank you for bringing it up because
when we talk about United Front
what we are saying is, husband and wife are on the same page.
See? Husband and wife are on the same page
not wife doing some things on the side or husband doing something on the side
And what I mean is that does not mean we don't disagree
What means that we are
it doesn't matter which culture you come from
As long as the husband and wife are on the same page, that means this is how we want to spend the money.
This is how much we want to give. This is how much we're going to give to the church.
This is how much we're gonna help paying for your brother's school fees.
This is how much will help pay for my sister's school fees because we are not saying
that we are not going to help. We just say this is what we have agreed so that when the auntie comes
or somebody comes and starts bringing their ideas to split us apart.
They might not even know they're doing that, but it's outside pressure.
And outside pressure when it comes we better be united because when an aunt comes and talks
to the wife on the side and then she, the aunt start making that the husband is the problem
and the wife still cannot even defend her man, cannot defend her husband.
They don't say, hey aunt I love you so much, you are the best, I really appreciate how
you helped me grow as a kid, I really appreciate that but I think
you're going out of line talking to my husband like that. We are working so hard
Me and my husband are working so hard or me and my wife are working so hard and
and we are just working and we're trying to make everything work
but I would really appreciate if you don't talk about him that way.
What that means is, if you are accepting them talking bad about your spouse
that means they know there's a gap between the two of you.
You are not united so now they can continue planting some of these seeds.
So the most important thing is,
I always say it's not the aunt or the uncle or the friends or the WhatsApp group or the Facebook group
That's not that. It's the fact that both of you are not united and because you are not united
now when you go to that WhatsApp group and they make fun of your husband or they make fun of your
wife, you don't defend because you're just like you're so quiet you cannot believe
you're going to upset them because if you upset them, you basically see that your new family
is not as important. So you view the old family, your family of origin
as the most important one and recall that you have been having a hard time transferring loyalty.
32:23Faith and intentional commitment
You are loyal to the old one but you are no lawyer to the new one that you are building
and the idea that you're going to upset the old one, your family of origin is so bizarre
that you are like, ah no I'm okay for somebody to make fun of my wife because if I say something
I am gonna upset them. That means they will know I'm not loyal to my family of origin but
you can be loyal, you can be nice to them but still defend and put all your energy on your
and you can still help your family of origin.
We are not saying don't help, but where are you putting your energy?
The same way your parents had to put energy on their marriage,
you're doing the same thing on yours.
I think that's a long answer.
Okay.
Alright this is really great.
Thank you so much for this.
I think we should go a bit further.
Yes, yes.
Okay.
I don't know, but you know one of the biggest challenges many couples face is taking boundaries
without damaging relationships.
Yes.
And I can say like let me say suppose a mother-in-law frequently makes decisions without parenting
like let me say it's about parenting without acting.
Let me say because if you come to there are some tribes that all these people with tribal
marks so you notice that sometimes the mother in law would be like this is our culture
this is the law, this is our custom.
and they would just do new baby, new born babies with tribal marks without their
asking, there are some settings called Haba, Jaws and Habam again
they used to give newborn babies so you notice they will give all these parents
and let me even take a child, alright?
Notice our old school mothers, I don't know if my mom had this old school, she would kill me.
So we know their old school, so all these old school mothers, you know them and those JZ mothers, they are so different
And then when you see them, they beat their grandchildren without taking permission from the parents
Yes, so or maybe elements a relative expect holiday tradition that creates tension inside their marriage
And many people either stay silent or becomes a
Defensive what does heavy?
Responsible boundary setting actually look like like how can couples establish heavy boundaries with parents relatives or cultural
expectations why sichu e or no and respect
Thank you because that's it's very important and it just always goes back to
That issue of boundaries is literally it's not the problem. The problem
It's not the mother-in-law taking the baby and going and putting the tribal marks
This is crazy, but the problem is the fact that
You and your husband not you like I'm talking about in that situation
The husband and wife are not on the same page.
What do I mean?
This is very important.
The wife thinks the tribal markings are not right.
That is very clear.
She thinks the tribal markings are not right, but the husband is not supporting the wife.
The husband is saying, I am going to support my mom.
So when the wife is bringing up this issue, we don't want tribal markings.
She is standing alone.
And this is why it becomes so hard because she is standing alone saying, I don't want these
markings.
I don't want them to put these herbs inside this quote unquote medicine to put them inside
the markings.
I just don't want that.
I don't know what is going to do to my baby.
I don't know if my baby's gonna be infected.
I don't want it.
But because her husband has not transferred his loyalty from his mother, he's putting his
he still is loyal to his mom and his loyal to his family of origin, he does not pay attention
to what his wife says. So that means we can spend the whole day trying to put boundaries
on the mother-in-law but the mother in law will say my son told me it's okay or the mother-in-law
will say you are talking to me fine but I'm gonna wait for my son to come home and then
and my son will tell me.
And when the son comes, he's gonna say,
yes mom, take the baby, go and do that.
Or even if he doesn't say it that way,
he is going to be approving.
So the key here is although it feels like
the mother-in-law is the problem,
I always go back to the United Front.
The problem is you and the wife and the husband
and unless they solve that,
which is where there is work,
I just don't see how it's gonna work
because the mother-in-law will always go back to his son.
We had this situation with another couple.
Every time they argue, their husband goes and talks to the mother-in-law.
Everything they have…
No, no, not the mother-in-law, to his mother.
Every time they argue any problem he goes and talks to his mom.
This was making his wife very upset because it's like okay, this is an internal issue.
Why do you need to tell your mom? This is me and you having an argument your mom doesn't need to know.
But where he came from, he always wanted to tell his mother.
Until he realized that some of these conversations are private matters between him and his wife.
He continued doing that and they were having all these problems.
And now the mother-in-law, this lady was using this information against her wife.
Oh, okay. This is really great.
38:51Building a marriage that stands together
Yes, I love it. Okay, quick reflection, I would love to ask you official questions before we call it a day.
What does a true United Front actually look like inside a Haiti marriage?
Perfect! Thank you! I'll tell you what it doesn't look like. It doesn't look like that we agree on everything.
Oh my goodness, we are always agreeing.
No?
What it looks like is when we disagree,
we do it in private, okay?
We do it in private, we talk about it,
we have that conversation and then when we are out in public,
when we are talking to the mother-in-law,
when we're talking to my side of the family,
when we are talking to the kids, which is very important,
they are getting one answer
and that is what we call a United Front.
They get one answer.
If it's the issue of tribal markings, the answer is if we have agreed that the answer
is no tribal marking, that is the answer they'll get.
It doesn't matter whichever way they go, it's going to be the same answer but that's what
we call United Front.
It does not mean we are not disagreeing, it just means we do it in private and one thing
I also want to say is when you're getting advice, be very careful where you're getting
advice from her because sometimes I see people just go and shop basically you're shopping
you are just getting advice that really does not challenge you it's just advice that agrees
with you so like okay the wife comes with her own advice from somebody else and he comes
with only his own advice from them and basically their advice is not to protect the marriage
I love you, and you know, Pesa, after working with so many couples, what has marriage taught you personally?
Not as a coach, not an autobot simply as a husband.
you know after working with many couples what I found out is having a great marriage
is easy to do but most of us don't want to do those things although we have done them because
we did them when we were dating so it's easy to do and another thing for me personally,
i think it has made my life…I feel like it's heavier for me because everything I'm telling you
I have to work harder to show that what I'm telling them, I am actually doing at home.
So I'm not just talking.
Okay so you are a doer of what you preach.
Yes and I think that's harder because there is talking
And then when you get home
and then you are going through another argument and you're like, man, you don't respect me?
You don't see how hard I'm working here?
You know what, you need to listen to your own advice and pause.
Listen to what she's saying and try to find a solution
which sometimes the emotions can be running very high.
Yes, thank you so much honestly.
You know, illness has been an incredible meaningful conversation so far
So before we wrap up, we can listen us learn more about you connect with your work and take the United Front marriage audit you mentioned
Yes thank you. What they can do is they can go to liveyourbestmarriage.com and that is L-I-V-E your best marriage dot com
and there they'll find the free United Front quiz
and that will help them.
It's less than three minutes, it's free
and a couple… you don't have to take it as a couple
You can take it alone
And what you're doing is
you are able to see where
you are weak
especially when it comes to
pressures
family pressure, financial pressures
how much do you defend your wife?
How much do you defend your husband?
Things like that
so that you know exactly
where you need to start working in your marriage.
And the reason why we did not do it,
like you have to do it as a couple
because sometimes most of the time in a relationship,
two of you are not at the same place at the same time.
What I mean is one might be excited about an idea
the other one might be like,
yeah, I don't know how this works.
So if one person can show their example
not to be rude or mean,
sometimes if you see your partner or your spouse
doing something and they're doing very well, you can be like, oh, you know what?
This makes sense. I'm going to try it too.
But sometimes if you don't see the example,
you might not even be willing to try it.
So we do it in such a way that one person can take it not to put down
the other one just to be an example in the house of how things can be when you start
changing.
Thank you so much for this.
And I really appreciate it.
So, what I appreciate most about this conversation is these simple truths. Many marriages need more love, they need more unity.
And the way couples are putting one another as a problem and start standing side by side against the pressure surrounding them, everything begins to change.
Without your marriage preparing for marriage or with simply building a hair-dry relationship.
This conversation reminds us that the strongest relationships are not viewed by avoiding conflict,
they are viewed by facing life's challenges together.
So, Professor, honestly thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your heart and your story with us today
And to everyone listening, you're welcome, honestly I appreciate this
And to everyone listening if this conversation encouraged you, inspired you or reminded you of someone who needs to hear it
Please share episode and while you are sharing it remember to get a hold of United Front Marriage
orders. Trust me, he is really going to watch this because Pesa still has a lot more to give than
he has done today so keep choosing growth over comfort, purpose over fear and always remember that
every great story begins beyond the draft. Remember I'm your host Iman and all this way
You have been listening from Beyond Drafts, so you always have power. Your story matters. Keep writing your story one draft at a time
Thank you so much Pesa for joining us today. It has really been fun having you around
Thank you very much and I've really enjoyed being here. Thank you very much, Emma
Credits and links
About this podcast appearance
Beyond the Draft is hosted by Immaculate Chinecherem. This page remains connected to the original public episode.
Learn more about Pesa Shayo, explore his books, or see more podcast appearances. Marriage resources are available from Live Your Best Marriage.