Podcast appearance
Us Against the Problem: Building Unity in a Cross-Cultural Marriage
Blessing Arutere and Pesa Shayo discuss how cross-cultural couples can face family expectations, cultural differences, and outside pressure as one team.
- Podcast
- THE GROWTH TABLE
- Host
- Blessing Arutere
- Published
- Guest
- Pesa Shayo
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THE GROWTH TABLE
Episode overview
About this conversation
Blessing Arutere and Pesa Shayo discuss how cross-cultural couples can face family expectations, cultural differences, and outside pressure as one team.
The conversation covers why outside pressure becomes a marriage problem, moving from blame to a united front, in-law boundaries and loyalty conflicts, communication across cultural differences, faith, trust, and practical next steps.
Key takeaways
Marriage principles discussed
- Why outside pressure becomes a marriage problem.
- Moving from blame to a United Front.
- In-law boundaries and loyalty conflicts.
- Communication across cultural differences.
- Faith, trust, and practical next steps.
Chapters
Conversation chapters
Full transcript
THE GROWTH TABLE transcript
Transcript note: Published with permission and formatted for readability. This transcript was automatically generated from the original public recording or caption track. Speaker names are omitted where the source did not identify them, and minor transcription errors may remain.
00:00Introduction and guest background
Welcome back to the Growth Table Podcast where we have meaningful conversations about relationships,
personal growth, leadership, purpose and experiences that shape the way we live.
Today's conversation takes us into an area that many couples experience but don't always
know how to talk about what happens when outside pressure begins to affect the relationship
inside the home.
For cross-cultural couples especially, marriage can bring together not just two people but two
families, two cultures, different expectations, traditions and sometimes very different ideas
about loyalty and responsibility.
Our guest today Pesa is an author and co-founder of Live Your Best Marriage where he helps cross-cultural
Christian couples navigate in-law pressure,
loyalty conflicts, cultural differences
and communication breakdowns. His work
is also deeply personal
through his own cross-cultural marriage with Whitney
and through years of helping other couples
Pesa has developed a practical
faith-rooted approach to helping couples recognize when outside pressure is pulling them apart
and learn how to face those challenges together. Pesa you are welcome to the Growth Table Podcast.
Thank you very much blessings I'm very happy to meet you. It's a pleasure having you here Pesa
Before we get into the advice and your framework, I would love us to start with you personally.
You have your own experience about being in a cross-cultural marriage.
So what originally made you realize that this was the area couples really needed help navigating?
What was your experience?
Tell us about you please
Thank you very much, thank you very much. So again, I'm Pesa Shayo, co-founder of Live Your Best Marriage and
Me and my wife have been married for more than 20 years and we come from two different cultures
me yes me I'm a Kenyan and
she's an American and
through our marriage we have four
very beautiful daughters and
and the reason why we even needed to introduce this ministry or start this ministry is because of the problems that we were having
through our cross-cultural marriage, our interracial marriage.
And we came thinking that as long as we love each other everything is great, everything will be great
and not knowing that I came with my own expectations and my own assumptions, how things are supposed
to happen.
She came with the same thing too but when you're dealing with people from two cultures sometimes
their expectations also are connected to your identity.
I literally believed sometimes when she would say no to something that I believed was the
right thing.
I honestly believe she was rejecting me, not knowing at that time she just did not either
understand what i was talking about or she just didn't like what was going on but
at the same time she wasn't rejecting me personally. Some of those things that brought a lot of problems
in our marriage and eventually that's why we ended up creating the Live Your Best Marriage
ministry. Oh, that's interesting. Yes. I actually think a lot of couples probably experienced
that but they don't necessarily have the language to explain or express what we are going through.
So thank you for sharing that. Yes. Was there a particular experience in your own marriage
that made you realize that this isn't just about the disagreement we're having,
that there's something much bigger underneath it. Yes, there were several experiences but one
was that really stuck with me when we were naming our first daughter.
time my wife comes from a place where she believed as a mother who has been pregnant for nine months.
It is her baby and because it's her baby, she is supposed to name her baby. So through this whole
pregnancy, she was reading books where she could pick up a name. Yeah. So now that brought a lot
of conflict because my side of the family knew 100% for sure that we were supposed to name
and the family name, The Baby. She also knew she was going to name The Baby. So after a lot of
really it was negotiation and peacemaking eventually we were able to come up with
a compromise where she picked the first name and then I picked…we picked the middle name
which was my grandmother's name and then the last name was the family name which is our name
06:22Why outside pressure becomes a marriage problem
I think that really showed me that what you might think is 100% correct.
You just know this is how things are supposed to be done.
To somebody else, it's like totally different and they can't even understand where you're
coming from so that will have…that really brought us…it really brought a lot of growth
in the situation because we had to work together and come up with a compromise.
Okay, that's amazing. I really admire that you guys were able to come to a conclusion and
You know you united
Unitedly came up with the name that is beautiful
There's one idea that actually stood out to me in your work and that idea is of
couples becoming a united front
When couples are dealing with family expectations or cultural differences, it can almost become
husband versus wife instead of the couples versus the problem.
So what does that United Front actually look like in everyday marriage?
You know, yes.
So with the United Front when we talk about United Front, we don't really mean that the
husband and wife don't disagree.
We just say that, yes you can disagree at home, you can disagree behind closed doors but when
you're having, you are putting out talking to maybe in-laws your kids and things like
and you need to be on the same page.
For example, when it happens with children,
children really know exactly when parents are not on the same page.
So they will do what's called parent shopping
and they will go to the parent who they know is more lenient.
So they'll say, hey dad can I have this?
Because they know if they go to mom she might say no
because you're not on the same page on everything
so they know who's gonna, who they can use to get whatever they want.
Even if one parent has said yes, has said no,
they know how to go to the other one and get what they want.
Yes. And that might be funny for kids but when now when you're dealing with in-laws
or you are dealing with outside pressure, now it becomes very intense.
and we even had a situation in my marriage where my wife would talk to my mother
and I know she wouldn't like this if she hears this but she would talk to my mother
and my mother would say, okay that's great but you know what? I'll wait for my son
I'll wait for my son and I want to hear it from him. So in a way, she knew that me and
my wife were not on the same page because whatever my wife would say, she knows that if she talks
to me directly, she's going to get a different story which actually brings more problems to
the couple because now we are having two stories. She just knows as long as she waits and talks
to me, she's going to get a different story.
So now what we ended up having is being on the same page so that even if she's hearing
it from my wife or she's hearing it from me, she's getting the same answer not two different
answers and she will be shopping for the right answer.
Okay.
I think there are cases that you actually keep between yourself and your wife because I believe
that when you introduce family members into solving some kind of complicated issues, it
somehow gets a little bit more complicated.
I'm not saying the family members are ruining things, they may be genuinely trying to help,
trying to protect their daughter or their son or probably trying to preserve their culture.
So how does a couple distinguish between loving their families and allowing
and how do you have families to have too much influence in their marriage, please?
So when it comes to having family, having a lot of influence in your marriage like your family
of origin, having a lot of influence in your marriage there's several things that go they are
going on. The first thing that sometimes we never even think about is who are you loyal to so we call
We call that, when we are teaching couples, we call that transfer of loyalty.
Because the two of you come together to create a family and the two of you become one.
So now you need to move the loyalty from your family of origin to the new family that you
are creating.
The same way your parents did the same way and created their own family.
and that's why you came from them.
Now, sometimes it gets very confusing because people will say,
no hold on, hold on, hold on, I'm not going to do any of that
because blood is thicker than water.
They will remind you that.
They will remind you, oh hold on, blood is thicker than water.
I am not gonna be loyal here while I'm…and ignore my blood relatives.
And sometimes we forget that even what you call your blood relatives
and we also had to come together to create that family. That family, yes the same way you're creating
yours right now they also did that. They just did it 50 years ago but there was a day they came together
so we forget that and what we are teaching here at Live Your Best Marriage is not to disrespect
12:44Moving from blame to a United Front
your parents because if you're coming from a family where even saying anything to your parent
is seen as a very bad thing and nobody wants to, most people don't want to disrespect their parents.
So we are trying to find a balance between them running your house and you respecting them.
So we say that you can get advice but the final decision has to be made in this new house like
That's where their final decision will be made.
So you don't make a decision in that WhatsApp group where you have a conversation on the WhatsApp group
and you make the decision and then your husband or wife is the last one to know about that decision
but they would be the ones who suffer the consequences if something goes wrong.
For example, they might decide in a family WhatsApp group
is the one who is the parent.
Yes, but the person who was maybe pushing for it
was the mother-in-law who if something goes wrong
might just say okay here take your baby
take the baby to the hospital.
They are not gonna deal with those consequences.
So it's very important to realize that
the family, the new family will deal with the consequences
So they also need to come up with a decision
Alright, thank you Pesa
That has actually explained my question and given absolute answer to it
Let us talk about culture because even when two people deeply love each other
I think they can come into marriage with completely different backgrounds or ideas about what is actually the normal thing that should be done in a marriage
So things like money, parenting and what else? Gender roles, obligations in the family
and all that communication, even how decisions are actually made in the family.
It can come from two different cultural backgrounds.
So how do we come to common ground in that kind of situation?
Thank you. That's a really good question because as the world is growing
more people these days are meeting and getting married to people who are not from there either their same culture or their same race
so people are really if you go to the city you might not meet somebody from your village or meet somebody from
your country but you still believe that you can make it work which is true
So now we also need to start being okay, learning like working as a team because before
before we already come with our own assumptions say let's say this is what a wife is supposed to do
This is what a husband is supposed to do and things like that. This is how the kids are
As I do, what you know is that it'll be just the same as that.
It's like if you had lived a life of a child and you've been married,
your kids are supposed to behave.
But now you start having…
You are… The same way you believed that you can make it work.
When you're dating and you're about to get married,
you always believe that you can make it work.
Both of you can talk about it and things like that.
and I'm going to do this work. What can I do? What can I do to make this work? It might mean that you might have to compromise in naming a child.
It might mean you might have to do some chores as a man and you never thought you maybe babysitting.
Yeah, right? You might never feel like you will be the one staying with your children because your wife is working a different shift
And there's nobody to watch their kids so it will force you
and I don't want to use the word force, but eventually you have to say, okay this is a situation I'm in
what can i do because I'm loyal to my family to make things work? Now some people might say hold on
that means the wife or the husband is in charge of you. I don't believe in that, I just say okay
what can we do to make it work? And sometimes you might be helping your wife especially if
If you are finding, most people don't get married and plan for one of them to be sick.
Maybe the wife to be sick, maybe after a childbirth she's so sick she can't even take care of the baby.
That means you might have to step up and do the things that the wife was supposed to quote and quote do because she is the mother.
So it's basically becoming more flexible and remember that she or he is your friend
and if it's a friend, you are more likely to help
versus if it's just this enemy or this human being in your house
that everybody is trying to make sure
oh I just came from work
I'm not gonna do anything extra because I've already worked
but if she's sick, you still have to do something else even after you've already worked for the day
19:06In-law boundaries and loyalty conflicts
so it's being more flexible and remembering that this is a human
and she's also a friend
Thank you so much, I was just letting that sink in for a while. Thank you. Yeah okay.
Talking about loyalty conflict, I think that's something a lot of people can
resonate with. A husband might feel like supporting his wife means it's
betraying his mother or a wife might feel that choosing a husband means that she is
and disappointing her family. So why can loyalty become such a powerful source of conflict in
marriages?
Thank you. This is something that I've seen it in my life, and I've also seen it in a lot
of couples that we work with the issue of loyalty because… And I think it comes from the idea
What if they so we are all hedging our beds? What if this doesn't work out? I don't want to cut
the bridges but what we are saying is yes you're transferring the loyalty from your family of
origin to a new family that you have decided remember, you have decided to build this new family
So what we are saying is how can you respect where you came from still be the child
still be the daughter who can even go and help out and take care of their mother,
take care of their father, go and even help them with groceries and things like that.
At the same time do not neglect your new family that you are building
and can you grow? The word here is grow. Can you grow enough to be that person who
can actually balance these two things because sometimes we don't have that growth.
We don't feel like we can emotionally handle the idea that
and live your best marriage.
of origin because if you're in that group, there's always somebody.
There is a cousin who's talking.
There is an aunt who's talking.
Somebody's always talking and it feels so connected.
That can actually hold you up,
can actually make it harder for you to start focusing on your family.
Then if you have a group that enjoys to hear those bad stories about husbands,
so everybody is sharing about how bad their husbands are, or everybody's sharing about
how bad their wives are.
And you're also contributing into the group.
You might end up feeling more connected to them because you're always telling them how
bad things are in your house.
So although you have fixed things today but they still remember what you told them yesterday.
How he came forward.
So you're always, they're always reminding you of all the bad things you've told them.
I guess you have fixed the problem. You guys are on the same page, you still love him and you're happy to be with him
but in their group when your aunt is talking in their group they are still bringing it up
oh my god how's that loser doing? And things like this
It feels like for some people they can never leave that
Eventually you just have to say, okay, I'm more loyal to my family
Even if we have my new family that I am building
And even if we have problems, we will deal with them behind closed doors
Or find somebody a neutral third party
Who's going to help us solve our problems
and we are not going to be airing our daddy linen in the family groups
In the family groups because that never helps anybody
other than them reminding you how bad of a mistake you did to get married.
Thank you so much, this is… I can't… Can I say? To be honest, I can actually resonate with
this and I have gotten something really really that's gonna help me from this response you gave
thank you so much there's more like a free marriage counseling i must say
Thank you, thank you.
So for example, I'm trying to talk about your approach about identifying the problem on the
and not focusing only on the argument itself.
So, for example a couple may be arguing about an in-law visiting or probably a sickness that
25:27Communication across cultural differences
happened in one of the couple's family and they need that person to come into the couple's
So she was telling me that she doesn't know how to handle that kind of situation because
she doesn't want that brother in-door to come into the family.
How can I help?
Because I'm no expert, I didn't know what to advise and that issue is very delicate.
I don't want to give the wrong advice.
Yes, so I don't know exactly what's going on but one thing
Some couples just deal with this sooner. Maybe when they are starting their marriage
some of them will deal with it later, but as a human being you will deal with
family being sick
Family dying family being sick these are just like really hard conversations
But that's what happens. You might be married to somebody to a husband who
and the family of origin, they expect him to show up because he's the oldest son.
His brother or his brother-in-law?
His brother.
So he wants to go and take care of his brother because that there's an expectation.
Now, his wife might feel like okay if he's going it's taking away from my family,
is taking away from our family that we are building here.
education so that the other ones can eventually get help from him.
So what I'm trying to say here is, if I was talking to them,
I will try to find a middle ground where
either
he needs to do his obligation to his family, his new family that he's building. So it's not a secret.
So he's saying okay, hey guys,
I will be going to the village to help but I've already taken care of things here at home
so that I'm not neglecting my
My brother
Maybe maybe my brothers kids and maybe his family is like like going through a hard time because I also hope
When I am the one with cancer or I'm the one with this disease
They are not neglecting you, my beautiful wife
or live your best marriage.
and taking care of the kids. Maybe she also works, and maybe you need to order groceries.
There's just so many things you can do but that way she doesn't feel because at the end
she might feel like you might go to the village someone will go to a village and start another
family there or just ignore her after all she has done. You know it's always after all I've
Live Your Best Marriage, Live Your Best Marriage, Live Your Best Marriage
Family, I know.
Yes, all right. Thank you so much. Okay, thank you. Go ahead. No, you were saying something.
Go ahead. Okay the most important thing here and this is from a lot of years of being married is
she should not feel like she's second place. She's number two. She should still feel like she's
is being listened to and being heard.
31:49Faith, trust, and practical next steps
People are listening, her husband is listening
to her concerns.
And yeah, taking them seriously, not saying,
I know don't worry about it.
You are just so ungrateful.
All I'm helping you already paid for this house
just don't worry about it.
No, no, no, no.
Take her point too seriously.
Okay?
Yes.
Thank you so much, Professor.
I'm really grateful.
You're welcome, blessings.
Your approach is kind of written on a Christian faith.
So I would love us to explore that aspect without making it too theoretical.
How does faith come into the picture of how couples handle conflict and all that?
okay especially when we are dealing with especially when you are dealing with our
family of origin, we have to remember that as Christians we talk about two over the
two become one, one flesh. Two of them become one flesh so we always
remember that that the two of us became one but at the same time if you look at
The Ten Commandments in the Bible, the Fifth Commandment will talk about honoring your parents,
your mother and father so that you can have a long life on earth. So now it becomes
It becomes very important for our faith that you are honoring your parents, but at the same time, you are remembering that the two of you have become one and you are creating a new family.
also, faith helps us appreciate that we can like it makes us always find the best for everybody.
We can always find the best for everybody especially if it's our family of origin so we are not out there just saying you know what I'm not even going to talk to you
because everybody sometimes we learn that there's a lot of people who are teaching that if you're
setting boundaries and they don't agree with you, you just need to cut them off. Just cut them off.
That might not work in every situation especially if
you just need to grow and see where they're coming from too. So yeah,
We don't preach the cutting of people all the time because as Christians we also believe to,
we need to honor our fathers and mothers. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Now if they are coming into your house
and practicing witchcraft and things like that now that's a… No way! Yeah most of them
just want to see their grandkids there's most of it is just regular problems that we just don't
I don't want to grow to deal with.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
All right, thank you once again.
Yes.
Pastor, I think you are exhausted all my questions but I really enjoyed this conversation.
Me too.
I believe that we've covered a lot but I don't know.
I just wonder is there something I haven't asked that you wanna share with our listeners today?
Oh, one thing I always want to remind especially husbands is to remember that their wife is not the problem.
Remember that she was the same one that you really wanted to get married to
and she's the same one that you could not wait to send a message to and call.
You couldn't wait to go and see her, all these things.
She's the same one so if you can get yourself back to that and view her as the same lady
who you cannot wait to see it's gonna really make it easy to even communicate even if you're
fighting.
Yes, because she's not your enemy. She's your friend and you need to remind yourself that.
Of course.
Yes.
Oh my God! This has been so wonderful. Thank you once again. Thank you so much for joining us today, Pesa.
You're welcome. I love helping especially the young people coming up
because some of these things sound so common sense when they are being said,
but when it's you in the house talking about dealing with it,
it becomes all hard.
It's something to deal with.
Yeah.
Yes.
But if you can just remember that you really didn't need a therapist
to get married because you just knew she was your friend.
I mean, you just knew you could figure out a lot of things together.
and that's basically what you're doing right now. Can you do it right now? Can you actually on your way home
call her and say how much you love her, things like that which will make it easier
for a conversation when you get home.
All right is there… How do we reach out to you for someone who has listened to this
and has some personnel questions, they want to talk to you directly please how do we get
to you and have your book also?
Yes.
So definitely you can always come to our website which is live your best marriage dot com and
the good thing about it is when you get there, there's a free United Front quiz.
You can take the quiz, it takes like 2-3 minutes and it can help you really know where you stand
when it comes to being on the same page with your spouse.
And then once you get the results, you will know what you need to start working on versus
just knowing that you need to be on the same page, you need to be having a United Front but
you don't even know where to get started.
Alright!
Thank you so much.
To everyone listening, I hope this conversation encourages you to look at your own relationships
and ask one simple question.
Are we fighting each other or are we standing together against the problem?
Thank you once again for joining us on the Growth Stable Podcast.
Until next time, keep growing, keep learning and keep building relationships with purpose.
Have a great time!
Thank you very much.
Bye.
Credits and links
About this podcast appearance
THE GROWTH TABLE is hosted by Blessing Arutere. This page remains connected to the original public episode.
Learn more about Pesa Shayo, explore his books, or see more podcast appearances. Marriage resources are available from Live Your Best Marriage.