Podcast appearance
EPS: 142 – On the Same Team: Building a United Front in Marriage with Pesa Shayo
Abigail Dominguez and Pesa Shayo discuss marriage as the meeting of two families, two histories, and sometimes two very different cultures.
- Podcast
- Heart to Heart with Abagaba
- Host
- Abigail Dominguez
- Published
- Guest
- Pesa Shayo
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Heart to Heart with Abagaba
Episode overview
About this conversation
Abigail Dominguez and Pesa Shayo discuss marriage as the meeting of two families, two histories, and sometimes two very different cultures.
The conversation covers what a united front means, family expectations and in-law tension, honoring family without dividing marriage, loyalty conflicts between spouses, culture, communication, and boundaries, christian faith, forgiveness, and teamwork.
Key takeaways
Marriage principles discussed
- What a United Front means.
- Family expectations and in-law tension.
- Honoring family without dividing marriage.
- Loyalty conflicts between spouses.
- Culture, communication, and boundaries.
- Christian faith, forgiveness, and teamwork.
Chapters
Conversation chapters
Full transcript
Heart to Heart with Abagaba transcript
Transcript note: Published with permission and formatted for readability. This transcript was automatically generated from the original public recording or caption track. Speaker names are omitted where the source did not identify them, and minor transcription errors may remain.
00:00Introduction and guest background
Hello, beautiful friend and welcome to Heart to Heart with Abigail Dominguez.
You may be wondering who is Abigail Dominguez?
Years ago a sweet toddler tried to say my name Abigail and instead called me Abigail Dominguez.
The name stayed with me as a beautiful reminder of the innocence, joy, and wisdom of children.
That's the heart behind this podcast, a place where we celebrate children, families, faith,
and the everyday moments that shape our hearts. Whether you're a parent, grandparent, caregiver,
educator or simply someone who believes in the power of love and connection, there is
a place for you here whether you're listening from Austria to Zambia or anywhere else around
Today on Heart to Heart with Appa gaba, I'm so happy to welcome Pesa Shayo, author and co-founder of Live Your Best Marriage.
Pesa helps cross-cultural Christian couples navigate some of the challenges that can put tremendous pressure on a marriage, including in-law expectations, loyalty conflicts, cultural differences and those moments when couples can find themselves feeling like they are on the opposite sides.
Through his books, podcasts and marriage resources, Pesa encourages couples to stop turning against each other
And instead learn how to face outside pressure together as one team with a United Front
Pesa! Welcome to Heart to Heart with Appigaba. I'm so glad you're here
Thank you very much. I'm so glad that you're having me here on the show and just can't wait.
Yay, all right let's get into it. This is a beautiful topic. It's really close to my heart.
So we can always learn something from marriage no matter what we think we know. We can always learn something.
I think so. Yay, let's start. So I want to begin with the phrase at the heart of your work,
a united front. When you talk about couples building a united front,
what does that actually look like in a marriage? Thank you. So when we talk about united front,
We are saying, we are not, what we're not saying is you will have a couple that agrees on everything.
No, that's not what we're saying. We are saying that all these conversations when you're trying to understand something
You are arguing, having these conversations, you are doing them in private
You are going and then when you come out in public and you're having a conversation,
you have the same united voice. So for example, yeah just for example imagine in a home where
you have kids. Kids really understand if the parents are not united and how do they do this?
They will say like this has happened to me actually it happened today
They know that mom and if the mom and dad are not united, they can go and shop parents.
They can ask mom something and if mom says no, they'll come to me and they might think
I might be saying yes.
This happened to me today when we were at the store with one of my daughters and she was
asking to buy a certain type of toy, a stuffy.
We already have said we have enough stuffies in our house, we can't have any more.
Right.
But she also knows sometimes I'm more likely to say yes.
So I had to remind myself when she asked me at the store, Baba, can we get another stuffie?
I said no because my wife already has told them that no more.
So, I had to actually drink my own Kool-Aid and have a United Front because I would usually
am the one who's like yeah you know what one more will hurt these kids need something extra
too.
Yes but that just literally shows that we are not on the same page because right yeah it might
It might be okay for kids, but now when you're going to a situation with in-laws or extended
family it becomes a different big situation where they know that they can talk to one child.
For example my side of the family let's say my wife is telling them something and they're
like you know what?
We get it but we will wait for Pesa.
and we'll wait for our son. Why? Because they know the son will give them a different answer.
Yes, but in a perfect… when you have a United Front, they know whatever answer they'll get from
Whitney. My wife is the same answer they'll get from me. Oh yes! Yes now that's a different story there.
05:36What a United Front means
Yes, yes. I really love that. I love how you said that to have conversations in private and so when a situation comes up in public we already talked about that and
we can refer to each other like hey we talked about this and this and this so
I love that mindset, that we can talk behind closed doors. We can ask questions, we can, you know, have all the…
That is wonderful! Thank you. Yes. Love that. Okay so family can be such a beautiful gift but it can
also become a source of tension. Why do in-laws and family expectations sometimes create
So much pressure, especially in cross-cultural marriages.
Thank you. You see when we come from different cultures what sometimes we forget is that culture pretty much shapes your identity.
How you view yourself and how you define a lot of things in your life has been dictated by your culture.
culture. So for example, the word family can mean different things in different cultures.
Right.
So where I come from, family means my cousins, my nephews, my uncles, all these people still
are in the same group as family plus if I meet somebody here in the US and they're from the
same area where I came from after a while I'll be calling them hey my brother it becomes another
and a brother, somebody who was…
I've found like I have people who are friends.
My dad and their dad were friends.
Now we're calling each other brother.
So that can just be a great thing for us.
But for somebody who grew up in a culture where when you say the word family
it means mom and dad and kids.
All these people who I will call brother and I'll do a lot for them might be seen as they are not really family
and that they should not be included in the word family. So all of a sudden we're having a disagreement where
oh you are calling my family members not family because now all of a sudden like it's like
affecting my identity. So when we have situations like that, and now we are dealing with in-laws,
it becomes a big problem because sometimes some in-laws will be having expectations that they
have to have a say in the family because they're part of the family. Hey I need to say on my kids
naming, like my grandkids who have their names or where they'll go to school or are
they going to get vaccinated or not vaccinated? Which doesn't sound like a big deal until you
are dealing with somebody who's like no this is my child. This is my kid. You cannot tell me what
to do with my kid. You are an in-law so now that becomes a big problem. So again we go back to the
Even if we are setting boundaries, we need to be on the same page first
Right
Yes
On the same page first
On the same page first, yeah
So when you were speaking I was laughing because I live in Arizona now but I was born and raised
in Ghana so I totally understand, I totally get it
Even I myself have done it like I go to Virginia
I went to Utah one day and many years ago, I saw a lady walking down the street
And just because she looked like my skin complexion, I'm calling her sister
She looks crazy or something
So anyway
Yep
And that's fine
You might go to like
Let's say you're going Arizona
And maybe there is a Ghanaian community
Ghanaians in Arizona event
All of a sudden now you have so many brothers and sisters in there
And you are treating them as family
But if somebody who never was raised in a community like that, they're like, hold on
This is the stranger. You just met them today. This is a stranger
Oh my goodness, I love that
Okay
On to our next question
So there's a difference between honoring our families and allowing family expectations to interfere with our marriage
How can couples recognize when they cross that line?
Thank you.
So that's very important and because some people think, oh you are teaching us to be united
That means we need to cut people off. We need to cut people off because we are like, we are united
But what we're saying is yes you're united but at the same time
Especially if somebody coming from a family where it's like, we call it a collective family
and the family where there is like what mom, the fact that mom and dad helped you, they are also expecting you to help them back.
11:12Family expectations and in-law tension
So there's that family dynamic way of helping families pay for school fees.
Right.
Yeah.
Now all of a sudden we are saying that, we are honoring them.
We say hey thank you mom, thank you dad for what you did for me
and I'm gonna help you.
The only difference here is because we also have a new family
that we are building.
We have a new nuclear family that we are building here.
Right.
So what we don't want is the situation where our obligations
in the other extended family or our other family of origin
is actually affecting their nuclear family.
For example, when, for example, if I get a phone call
and say hey we need help to pay
for these doctor's bills forever, that is a valid concern.
We need help paying for this doctor bill.
But before what I would have done
is I know I have the money and they need help.
All I need to do is just send.
So I'm like, okay you know what? I'm gonna WhatsApp you the money.
I'm going to cash up your money right now because I know you need it.
But what that does in the nuclear family, it actually starts bringing resentment
Because the spouse is finding out these transactions when they look at the bank account
They don't find this transaction…
They never know what is really happening until they look at the finances
right so and the way we think about it is like they are having to deal with the consequences let's say
they don't have enough money for groceries, they're dealing with those consequences but they really
never had any decision. They were not involved in making their decisions. So you're getting a hundred
percent of the consequences but you never get you're never having a place on the table to say you know
and you know what, I think let's send the money.
So we are saying the best thing to do this is just say okay buy some time and say okay
yes you need some money give me a minute I'll get back with you or you know what let me check
on a few things they will get back with you and then use this time to discuss with your
spouse with your wife say okay this is what's going on most of the time if they're married
to you most of the time, they are not going to say no.
But you're giving them the courtesy
of knowing what's really happening.
Right.
It's like so and so just passed away
because they passed away.
So I need also to make my contribution for the funeral.
OK?
Everybody is making a contribution.
I need to make mine.
So when they know this it's like, OK, fine.
It's fine.
but so they feel like they are part of the family,
but at the same time you are still doing what you're doing
which is helping your family versus how we used to do things
which is just yeah, send, yeah, send.
And then oh my God later on it's like,
Oh, what else are you hiding?
If I have to find this later
when I'm looking at a bank account
what else are we hiding?
Maybe we're about to buy a house. We don't need to be spending money on this one because maybe we have our goal of putting money for down payments
If everything is in the open, which is a hard thing for most people, if you put it in the open, it's easier for people even to trust you and to be okay with what you are doing with your extended family
Obviously we have loyalty to our spouses, so we need to have this conversation to avoid all the conflicts that is unnecessary.
Yes, I totally see that. I totally agree with that.
Okay, so that leads into my next question.
So what happens when one spouse feels
you always choose your family over me?
Obviously if we're loyal to our spouse
then that feeling would not be there
but if it happens,
if that happens then how do we resolve that?
How do we resolve so we don't choose
both one family over the other?
Yes and I like what you said
If you are a lawyer to your spouse, you won't be having this problem
because you have literally hit the nail here
which is basically the person did not transfer their loyalty
They basically are loyal to their family of origin
and they view this wife or husband as not somebody to be loyal to
So you'll hear statements like, you know what? Blood is thicker than water
I have to take care of my people
Things like that, those statements will just tell you that they have not transferred their loyalty.
They are more loyal to their family of origin. This one is not seen as a real marriage and
it's… So what somebody would do in our situation is we start by talking, okay fine, and express
to your spouse who literally hasn't transferred their loyalty and let them know that, hey,
I don't like feeling second place to your family of origin. Every time this happens,
16:48Honoring family without dividing marriage
I feel like I'm left behind not because I am going to say no to them but you seem like every
and find maybe a pastor or somebody else who can mediate.
And this is very hard because sometimes the pastor might be from our communities
who might also believe that it's okay not to transfer their loyalty.
So I would say you have to find somebody who is able to see both sides,
either they come from a cross-cultural marriage themselves or they are also very wise that they
can see okay, they can see what the woman is going through here and she's really trying but
maybe their husband is not really appreciating that he hasn't really transferred their loyalty.
And some of the things we've seen that would show that somebody hasn't transferred their loyalty is
is like maybe their mother, so basically their mother is calling the shots in the home.
They are saying what needs to happen in the home.
They're talking very bad about their wife and the son doesn't say anything because he believes
that mom is always right and if I say anything to mom she's going to be very upset with me.
So what are you trying to, what are you protecting? Because if somebody was doing the same thing
to your mom when she moved into… People forget that their mom also came into this family.
That's how they created this family many years ago. What if somebody was treating your mom
the same way you were treating my wife? How would that work? When you start putting those things in
and also when somebody reminds him, how would you like it if somebody was doing the same thing to you?
Making decisions without your input but you have to deal with all the consequences from that decision
and sometimes that can help someone who's like oh you know what I wouldn't like that.
I really won't like that yes so how can we begin to have a healthier conversation
without turning into an attack or a competition.
Okay, the first thing is I always say see your wife
or see your husband as a friend.
The same way you saw her when you are dating
and you're looking forward to talking to her
and you cannot wait to propose
and you can not wait to smile.
You know what I'm saying?
It's like oh my God!
I cannot wait to get married, no doubt.
Can't wait.
Yes, the text messages, the pictures there.
The late night phone calls.
Phone calls and you're like how come he hasn't called?
How come, you know, there's that feeling like oh my goodness,
hey you are even telling all your friends hold on,
i'm getting this one right?
That is what we are trying to go back to.
Right, right.
We are trying to go back to a place where
you could still give her the benefit of doubt.
Now anything is scrutinized.
If she says something, oh my God,
you add it to the list of all her problems.
So I would say the most important thing is remember she's your friend.
Something that we…
I say we but growing up I used to hear this as a big problem
and now looking back and I'm like what was it?
I would hear people saying that a wife who burns food, like over cooks food or burning in the store
was supposed to be a big problem. Or she doesn't know how to cook and all that stuff
And people would even get divorced from something like that
And I'm thinking right now, that's the skill that she just needs to learn
That is not something that you can order out food if the food did not come out right
But you're still maintaining that good relationship because she's your friend
22:25Loyalty conflicts between spouses
Right, I love that. Yes
Wow
yes
That's just good stuff wonderful stuff
So culture can influence everything from communication like we've been saying from communication style to expectations about gender roles family
involvement money parenting and even conflict
and the same thing.
What communication mistakes tend to make cultural difference and clashes even worse?
Thank you, because I went through this making always making assumptions that we are talking
about the same thing like I would come into a conversation thinking that whatever I'm thinking
maybe half the conversation was already done in my head.
Now I'm just finishing it up with her, but I'm assuming not only does she know what I'm talking about,
but she even understands the context.
And sometimes if you're coming from a different culture we have two different contexts.
So like let's say somebody is talking about Thanksgiving Day.
They have to accept that I literally learned Thanksgiving Day when I was growing up.
I did not grow up knowing about Thanksgiving Day. So when you're talking to me about Turkey and
Thanksgiving day, and how you need to… I don't know! I'm literally like literally learning about it
as you're telling me so you have a different context than I do right? So when I'm telling
you about goat meat, I'm not just talking about meat, I'm talking about like this great time I had
with my uncles and aunts, and we are just eating, and we are eating all this like
goat meat. It's just a great time but to somebody else it's just meat what's the big deal? It's
just meat and it stinks I don't want it. But when somebody says it stinks now all of a sudden
it's a communication but all of a sudden they're not really saying it stinks to me
they are literally saying I reject you that's what i'm getting
I reject you because without knowing, I've taken this goat meat to be basically me, like a part of
me. A part of my history so i would say like be very careful with what the assumptions that
you are bringing into each conversation yes there's a lot of assumptions yeah that makes
so much sense that makes so much sense even like that makes so much sense i can go on but
Yeah, that makes so much sense. So let's talk about boundaries. Yes. Okay, so how can a couple
establish healthy boundaries with parents or in-laws while still showing them love and honor?
So I believe in living and cleaving and two become one. I believe in that but I also believe in
and the same thing, honor your parents, honor your mother and father.
So those are two different things that I want to balance there.
So boundaries, everybody's talking about boundaries, but I believe boundaries will only work
when the couple is united on that boundary.
Right. Ooh, that's cheap.
Yes, yes, the couple is united on that boundary.
If you are having a boundary and at the same time you're not united, we have what we call a gap.
As long as there's a gap between the two of you it's easy for somebody to come in between and separate.
Oh yes.
So as long as there is a gap, they say, I'm just going to wait for my son. You keep talking. My son, I'll just wait for my son.
What?
and they will even tell you in your face, you're like, you know what?
Let me call my son and let him tell me because he knows that the son will always side with them.
So basically there's no unity. So setting boundaries has to have the family already, the couple already united.
The next thing is being able to accept that they are giving us advice, but the decision has to be made by us.
So yeah, they can tell us, oh you know I think you guys need to live in this town or you need to come and visit during Christmas
or I think it's going to be a great idea if the kid goes to boarding school.
Whatever they might say, but the decision has to be made by the couple.
Right.
Yes.
I had this story where there was a wife who did not believe in this tradition where they…
I don't know how to say it in English.
they're just like when the baby's a little a little baby they they make these little incisions
and they put traditional herbs to quote-unquote protect the baby. And this is done in the village
28:01Culture, communication, and boundaries
but the mother-in-law was like okay uh this is what I did for my son, basically your husband so we have
to do it for the baby now the wife is saying no because i don't believe in what you guys are doing
but obviously the whole conversation here was as much as they were honoring their mom, she
was disagreeing with that situation because and her whole idea was if anything goes wrong
with this procedure I'm the one who's going to have a sick baby. My mother-in-law will not
As much as you're honoring them and being very careful, at the end of the day it goes back to
did their husband and wife are they on the same page? That's where the work needs to be.
Because if the husband had said, mom we love you, we really love you and I really appreciate what you did to me
that was the best way you thought of when I was a kid to protect me
But we have decided that we are not gonna do this procedure.
We love you and we really love what you did, but we will just say no to this.
Yeah, you're saying you're honoring your wife
but at the same time you're thanking your mom for what she did
because she did the best with the information she had when you were a kid.
But now we know about infection and bacteria and trauma and all these things which we did not know many years ago
Right, and that is so wise because like the incision example, like the wife who has to deal with it maybe if a baby gets sick or whatever should happen, the ifs
Yes. She cannot honor the tradition as the sun grows older, so it's you know we cannot put this on the wife who did not
grow up with this culture doesn't know that's it's so fair what you said I love your answer yeah to gently and you know honor them
and what they did, how they knew to do best.
And that this is our family, we love, we, the unity of saying, yeah, it makes so much sense.
Oh my goodness! I just love that.
And faith is an important part of your work.
So how does Christian faith shape the way couples can approach conflict?
Family pressure, forgiveness
and the commitment to stand together.
Yes, thank you. We believe that once you put faith and Christian faith in the marriage,
now you are actually living with something bigger than you because now all of a sudden
you can see that for example when we talk about the biblical view of children.
children. Before we would think, you know what these are my kids, my kids and I'm raising my kids. Okay
great but if you're looking at the biblical view now all of a sudden you are a steward of God's
children. Now you are seeing your wife as a child of God so you are more careful with the way you
are treating her. You are more careful the way you are treating your children because they are not
You are really your children, they are children of God.
Now I have a question.
Yes, yes.
So now you bring a better game into your marriage and also into your parenting.
You are not more likely to constantly yell because even Paul in the Bible talks about
how we are not supposed to be aggravating our children.
We are correcting them, but in a way that at the same time we are not constantly just upsetting them.
Yeah. Yes. So there are many new things, but at the end of the day we are serving a God that's bigger
than us and so basically now the marriage is also part of something bigger versus
is just because without marriage now it becomes two animals, two mammals living together.
And if you view yourself as a mammal and this one mammal, this one mammal and they have feelings
and emotions and there's nothing bigger than that life becomes very meaningless.
Yeah, it's basically like two animals living together, it's very meaningless.
So I'd love to make this very practical for someone listening today. Maybe a husband and
33:37Christian faith, forgiveness, and teamwork
wife are sitting in the car, listening together or perhaps one spouse is listening alone and
thinking we need this what is one simple thing they can do this week? To stop fighting each
other and begin facing outside pressure as one team.
Okay, one simple thing you can do this week is let's say you're listening to this right now
and you're like okay he's talking a lot but what am I gonna do? I'm about to go home. What
am I going to do? Okay great start thinking about your spouse as your friend.
Oh yes. So literally start thinking about her as a friend so send her text message or send him
a text message say you know what I can't wait to see you. When I send that to my husband right now.
Yes, I can't wait to see you and always remember she or he is not your enemy
Take it to the next level but she's calling me these words and I'm like okay okay I see you up
And then also at that moment now you become more agreeable, you're like you know what I see your point
I literally start seeing their points. Start really seeing their point and sometimes their point is
Your point? Yeah yeah you know I see your point, right. That was happening to me I'll be upset too
and then don't keep another thing is also don't keep this long list of things she has done wrong
and don't do it. It's just why it's not exciting when you go through like last because it takes so
much energy and this energy could have been used to create this great environment in your own house
like when you're keeping this record, you could have just say maybe you're going downstairs and
you're like hey guys I'm so excited man. This is such a great day. You can say that or you can say
oh my god last night she was so mean to me which one would i want? Exciting one! Yes yeah! Someone
might be like so you want me to…you want me to…is this manipulating them? I'm like so and I will ask
I would say, you know what? What do you want? Do you want somebody to manipulate you out of that great marriage that you really wanted when you got married to them?
So no. You are not manipulating them. You are actually getting this great marriage that you wanted.
On your wedding day if when somebody looks at all those pictures in your house on the wall
When you guys are getting married, you do not want a bad marriage.
No.
No! I mean come on. So you're not manipulating them, you're just getting yourself a great marriage.
Yes. Two fires cannot co-exist. You've been the cool, you know, you've been cool too.
You're kind of trying to bring peace, you cannot try to like, you know, yeah, like you said, like your friend and remember how dating used to be and to continue that.
It's the same…and I know time is running out and what…the longer you live together, the more seasons people will go through different seasons.
I'm learning me on Heart to Heart with Abu Ghabah. I really appreciate the reminder that marriage doesn't have to become a battlefield simply because two people come from different families, cultures or traditions.
Sometimes the challenge is in husband versus wife or wife versus husband. The challenge is learning to look at the pressure together and say how do we feed this as a team?
Yup!
Oh my goodness, I want to thank you so very much again and we can continue this conversation
again because it's really so awesome.
Yes.
I would not say no to a part two.
I'm looking forward to it too.
Okay then let's make it happen then.
We have less than one minute so I will reach out to you and then we can make a part two.
I would love that.
Thank you so much again.
Okay.
Thank you very much.
You're very welcome.
Welcome. Thank you so much for spending time with me today on Heart to Heart with Abigail Gaba.
If this episode encouraged your heart, I'd be so grateful if you would follow the podcast,
leave a review and share it with someone who could use a little hope today. You can also connect
with me at abigailintomigas.com where you'll find my books, our family events and weeks we
and you can continue this journey together.
Until next time, keep believing in your story,
keep extending grace to yourself and to others
because every heart matters,
every story has purpose
and every season is an opportunity to grow
wherever you're listening from around the world.
Thank you for letting me be a part of your journey.
I'm Abigail Dominguez and this has been Heart to Heart with Abu Ghabah
Credits and links
About this podcast appearance
Heart to Heart with Abagaba is hosted by Abigail Dominguez. This page remains connected to the original public episode.
Learn more about Pesa Shayo, explore his books, or see more podcast appearances. Marriage resources are available from Live Your Best Marriage.