Podcast appearance
#101 United Front For Couples That Often Live Apart – with Pesa and Whitney Shayo
Rhoda Bangerter talks with Pesa and Whitney Shayo about emotional connection, cultural expectations, repair, and unity for couples who spend time apart.
- Podcast
- Holding the Fort Abroad
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- Rhoda Bangerter
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- Pesa Shayo
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Holding the Fort Abroad
Episode overview
About this conversation
Rhoda Bangerter talks with Pesa and Whitney Shayo about emotional connection, cultural expectations, repair, and unity for couples who spend time apart.
The conversation covers cross-cultural marriage and time apart, provision versus emotional connection, different definitions of what is right, de-escalating conflict and repairing connection, private decisions and the united front, practical guidance for couples living apart.
Key takeaways
Marriage principles discussed
- Cross-cultural marriage and time apart.
- Provision versus emotional connection.
- Different definitions of what is right.
- De-escalating conflict and repairing connection.
- Private decisions and the United Front.
- Practical guidance for couples living apart.
Chapters
Conversation chapters
Full transcript
Holding the Fort Abroad transcript
Transcript note: Published with permission and formatted for readability. This transcript was automatically generated from the original public recording or caption track. Speaker names are omitted where the source did not identify them, and minor transcription errors may remain.
00:00Introduction and guest background
Welcome to Holding the Food Abroad, the podcast for families where one parent works away from home,
and for those who support them. My name is Rhoda Bangator, and I help you build connection across
the miles. Today we have Pesa and Whitney Shayo, they're authors speakers and co-founders of Live
Your Best Marriage. They've been married over 22 years in a cross-cultural marriage
and they provide faith rooted resources and a united front blueprint to help couples navigate
cultural differences, in-law pressure and communication hurdles. And you are the first couple
on my podcast so welcome I'm very happy to have you here. Thank you for having us.
So I would love to hear your story and also what you will share about cross-cultural couples
and as I said when we were introducing each other earlier I've been fascinated with
with cross-cultural couples and at a distance.
Well, I can share a little bit about our story.
I grew up in small town Kansas and Pesa grew up in Kenya and he actually attended college
in the town where I'm from.
And when he graduated we both began working at the same place and we hit it off really
well.
and as we were dating, we really didn't have a lot of issues come up as far as communication
or anything like that.
But then after we got married, that is when we started to notice…
We started to hit a few roadblocks at that point.
We started realizing how different our backgrounds really were and just how different our expectations
and
and a lot of irritation and conflict actually came from that.
Yes, you know where I was raised there's this idea that you need to be direct in everything
you're saying because there's a lot of people in one household and just to get your point
across you need to be more direct.
Now Whitney on the other side she comes from a place where they are more likely to what
I will call it beat around the bush, so not be very clear with what she's saying.
And that at first it was fine. I thought it was very interesting. It was like this just builds up
the curiosity trying to find out what's going on but eventually when we got married now that
something that was very interesting and exciting now becomes very annoying because
I had that assumption that if you want to tell me something, just tell me.
Yes.
Oh, that became a big fight.
Right, right.
I think I was definitely more quiet and more easily offended.
And Pesa would wonder, okay well, I'm just talking, what's the problem?
What's wrong with that?
Yes.
Yeah they were two very different styles for sure.
Were you living in the US when you got, are you in the US now?
Yes.
Right and then you were at the beginning of your marriage.
What do you think changed from dating to marriage?
Well I think definitely during our dating stage we were just so like infatuated with one another
and we were just, the time that we spent together during that phase was all about having fun.
But then after we got married and actually started living together, that's when real life
started.
I mean, we started dealing with you know, just the logistics of getting through the day, cooking,
laundry, just being under one roof with someone.
I mean, you know there's just a lot of planning. There's just a lot of life that happens at that point
and so that's when we started to kind of butt-heads a little bit
And yes, and when you add this extra layer of somebody is from a different culture
You don't really think about it until now the things that you assumed were real or they were supposed to happen
05:31Cross-cultural marriage and time apart
They are not what she thinks of. Like for example, when it comes to holidays
I came from a place where holidays were not only a big deal but were big
family affairs so not only cousins
Brothers like a lot of people show up for one holiday. She believes in
just the nuclear family
Okay, that doesn't sound a problem until
until I have invited all these friends and she is feeling very drowned out.
Yes.
And what is so great to me, to her it's the worst experience ever.
And I'm so oblivious not even knowing that this is the worst thing to her because she's not clear,
she's not telling me but at the same time I'm not emotionally connected
I think that's a very interesting point because I think sometimes the direct indirect sometimes people may know that one but the emotional connection
That's one. Would you say some cultures make more importance to that or learn it more? What would you say that's about?
I think they, I think some cultures pay a lot of attention to the emotional connection and also the feelings. How do you feel? How did that make you feel?
and the concept of feeling.
And if you are coming from a culture where you are not trained on this feeling aspect,
and you're mostly about survival, mostly about either providing or getting things but it's
mostly physical, when the concept of yes, you have all the physical things you want but you
You still did not give me the emotional connection.
It can be very unnerving because I don't even know there was something else that I needed to provide which is having that connection emotionally.
Yeah.
Yes.
So, at one point, did you have a conversation about that? How did you identify all these different elements?
if I did express that I was somewhat overwhelmed, you know having all these people around
I think he sort of took offense to it and really um I think there were times when he believed
that I did not want all these people around. Yeah. And you know so it was I think we just
We took offense to a lot of these different views on things that we had.
And just to add on that, for me what really hit home was around the time when our third daughter
was born at that time I was really feeling that I'm such a great husband and I was working six nights
so basically two to eleven and then eleven to seven. So basically six nights every week
to provide for my family, and because I had so many of my friends who are doing the same thing
we were, I felt very proud that I'm sure that my family is well taken care of. The word is here
financially. We, my wife can stay at home with the kids and she doesn't need anything. Not knowing,
So at that time she had a baby, she was having a little bit of postpartum depression
which I did not know. She's saying you know what? I'm ready to live
I can't live like this. You are never home. I'm ready to live
Bring me the papers and sign them
And I thank God that at that time something happened with me because I was able to pause
Most of the time when she brought up these issues
I would just think she was very ungrateful and she was not seeing how much I was sacrificing for the family
And like, I just knew I was doing the right thing and she was being ungrateful
Because how would you not see how much I'm sacrificing for this family?
But…and also my friends were doing the same thing so we were just egging like
Just er…egging each other on like we need to work more
We need to work more as long as we are young
we need to make as much money as we can and make sure that our family is set for life
not knowing that there was something that I was ignoring. So anyways, my wife is like okay
i'm ready to sign give me the papers I'll sign and it hit me and that's when I really paused
11:03Provision versus emotional connection
and I started listening because I was able to understand that as much as I'm working
and doing the right thing, I'm about to lose my family.
And I was able to start listening.
And that's when I started this journey of being able
to understand that there is another version of life
which you need to also be there emotionally.
But at the same time what you think is right
might not be what somebody else thinks is right.
Even if you have the best of intentions
and I had a lot of great intentions
She didn't feel like I was doing the right thing at that time
Emotionally and at a distance you probably need to multiply that even more to make that emotional connection
So how would you make an emotional connection where you haven't learned how to do that?
so for me, I thank God that
we started going to our local church that really helped because the small groups really helped and
A small group for couples
Right. Really helps, so also start doing date nights. We've been doing I think 11 or 12 years now.
It's going on 15. 15 okay. Wow. So 15 years now and so the date nights become…
this is something that we have realized that you have to schedule some of these things into your calendar.
I don't think it will ever happen. Because there were some days we would even go and
we'll be arguing all the time in the car as we are going there but we still
believe it was so important to show up, and thank God we did because it started
building this new skill that being connected and showing up for date days
and the dates were very important.
Yes.
Right.
And…
Yeah, so that emotional connection, I think we learned it simply by trying to do it, by
actually trying to make it happen because as he said a lot of those early date nights
we would fight through the whole thing but we were trying though.
We were trying to make it happen.
to understand each other, is that how you would explain emotional connection?
Absolutely. Yes absolutely and so I think what really helped us was just by going ahead and
setting that quality time on our calendar. I think that's really what did it. Yes and
at that time I really didn't know appreciate how important that was that we left the home
We told the kids, when we are dropping off the kids, they knew we were going for dead night
And then even if we're arguing and not feeling like up to it, we still left
And maybe go to Banzanobo because there's a lot of people there
That will help us just change our mind because we sit there, we are walking around Banzanobo
That takes our anger down and then gets us ready now to go to the restaurant
And there are some times, I would even tell younger couples right now that just because you don't feel like it
Figure out a way to look at the big picture. You still don't want to have this argument or this divorce
So find a way to still go because eventually once you get this new skill of having quality time with your spouse,
You will have learned something very important because after a while what you thought was an important fight is not that important
Yeah, so how do you… so repair is a buzzword right now right?
is supposed to repair, people say that couples who stay together are those who repair. So did you
16:34Different definitions of what is right
repair differently? Or basically or bids for repair isn't that bids for repair? Yes. That's what it's
called. Yeah there was a lot of repair going on especially at that time and we still do them up
still do yes yeah so some like give an example so for example just as he had
mentioned if we were arguing out on the date one of us usually him I think he
was more mature he would you know make that repair attempt and say okay hey let's
why don't we just enjoy the next couple hours you know tell you what why don't
and
or start doing something just in a way to deflect that huge argument that you are about to have
and sometimes your wife might be like, oh you know what?
I don't think it's that important because now he really agrees with what I'm saying.
But if it's the constant back-and-forth nobody will win
because one is right, the other one is right and nobody is breaking their…
What is it? The impasse?
Is it a stalemate?
The stalemate! Nobody is breaking the stalemate!
Somebody has to believe it
and then we can revisit this.
Or you could say exactly what you were saying,
like okay well I get your point.
And those are all super feasible as well on a phone
if something comes up.
Because often on a phone what happens is
you put the phone down right?
And then you're no longer in that conversation
so I think also important to flag that
but those are really useful sentences to have as well.
for the rest of the world.
And I think that's a great opportunity
to have a conversation with you,
and we need some audiences to have as well.
Sometimes just not to cut you off.
Sometimes what I do, like we might be having a disagreement
and it's on the phone and maybe somewhere else.
And I can just, as we are talking,
I can just look at the pictures we have on the phone.
And if maybe one, we're doing a selfie,
and then she'll say, oh my god it's me. I just sent a picture which is in a way just to take her back to that moment where we were taking that picture.
So emotionally she's in an argument, emotionally she's sent back to a place where we were happy and took our selfie.
That takes down a notch.
Great tip. Great tip.
Okay, slight turn in the conversation. What about two topics that come up I think in every marriage?
Is in-laws, extended family and money. So I'm assuming, I mean, in-laws, extended family
there can be criticism or support or you know, and different family cultures have different
expectations of how you're supposed to listen to a family. So what I'm curious to hear what
you want to share about that and then Mummy, again we were at a distance
well he's done Monday to Friday, he's done multiple weeks at a time, we've done months at a time
and money, basically I took over paying the bills right so I was and it's now that we're
back together that we're having so he was making the money I was spending it and managing it
and then I even bought a house and he didn't even see it but now we're back together I'm
like oh we have to wait wait do I need to double check with him because before there were so
I've seen so many things that I didn't double check because he's not available, so I would just be used to handling it.
So those are two but same thing they're the ones that maybe come up a lot for couples in general but also cross-cultural couples.
22:06De-escalating conflict and repairing connection
so for when it comes to…
So everything we always look at it from the lens of United Front which and when
we talk about United Front would basically mean that we are not saying we
are not arguing or we are not saying that we don't disagree, we are saying that we
will have that private time to have this conversation first. And then when the in-laws
If it's her mom, my in-laws, if there is something that they want her to do, we will talk first.
For example when they are coming to visit.
Yeah so right now we live in a different state.
So if a relative wants to come and visit, it's best if Pesa and I talk about it first.
Yes, to talk first.
make decisions together, now it becomes a problem. So we have found out the best way, especially for me
if I get those phone calls, I need to buy time and I say okay let me either I need to talk to my wife
or I'll pray about it or look check things around and I'll get back to you so that I can go and
have the conversation with Whitney, talk about it and then now she knows what most of the times
She will say yes, but at least she's given the benefit, the courtesy of knowing where the money is going
instead of like looking at the bank statement. You're like okay what is this? So yeah so having that
connection first and having this conversation before you go out and talk about it and sometimes
and appreciate things like this, they will know that never to have those jokes around me.
So I'm supporting her even if she's not there.
Yeah.
But yes-
Very important.
Very important because some people are afraid to disappoint their family of origin.
They'll say, you know what?
Blood is thicker than water.
I cannot really tell them that.
That's my uncle.
If my wife leaves me, I need to go back to them because they still haven't really transferred
Yeah, yeah. Not to very good point. Yes. Do you want to add anything Whitney?
Um yes also we actually do have a personal story we can share about the different expectations that my in-laws had when we were having our first baby
we could not agree on what to name the baby because in Pesa's family they have a tradition of naming the kid after, you know, the grandma or the auntie or the uncle or whoever's turn it is.
And I had the expectation of choosing the baby's name myself and so that was a major, major issue that we had
and thank goodness we were able to compromise.
Pesa said, okay well why don't you pick the baby's first name
27:37Private decisions and the United Front
and then we'll go ahead and do a Swahili name for their middle name
so that's what we've done for all four of our girls
but when that was happening it was a big deal
It was very difficult for us to navigate through that because I think they weren't expecting somebody to just say,
Hey, I want to name my kid. They thought it was going to go according to plan. So those are just some of the things that we've gone through.
These are important things for couples, say they're dating now to talk through, right?
But then you have a big fight and then you're like, so then we're not meant to be together?
No. You can still be together. It's useful to talk about it.
Yes, you can talk about it. And she is being very gracious at that time in the hospital.
It was such a big fight because we also had that time crunch. The Nazis also wanted the name,
so it's not just baby X anymore. So they wanted the name. So we needed to come up with a name very
quickly and it just felt like everything had to happen so quickly. So there was that urgency.
My side of the family knew 100% what the name should be and they were insisting.
My wife also knew what the name should be. So I'm trying to juggle two groups of people.
We were able to make it happen but I can say in those situations you cannot just
give up there's always a way to make it and to make it happen and that actually
shows how emotionally or just how mature you are in that situation because
You are trying to balance two different sides and both of them seem to believe they are right
Yes, we had that with our wedding preparations
We had completely different expectations
Our families had different expectations of their roles at the wedding
And so like, we're having these major fights before we have anything that we can talk about
which, you know how to… but that could happen, you know, it's just two different family expectations, right? Sometimes.
So can you share a little bit more about the United Front audit that you have on your website
so that couples who are maybe just starting to be together or those that have been together a long time
and that maybe finding that they're fighting and they can't quite… they're always fighting about
and the same things but they can't quite figure out what it is, how they can use that maybe
if you could say a little bit in the context of faith as well for anybody here who's a believer
or Christian who follows the Christian faith, how it can be helpful. And then maybe say a
few words for couples who are distanced because and how it could still be used by them if you
you could just elaborate a little bit more on it and what you do.
Okay, well when they take the United Front audit, the first thing is it helps them review the
areas where their marriage might appear to be the most vulnerable, things that they need
the most help with at this time. And we think that really the results should not be used
to blame one another for one spouse to blame the other.
Really, they should use these things
to identify where the pressure is coming from
and if there's a pattern that might be working
against their marriage.
And they can choose maybe one issue
to start with that they want to address.
Just basically have an honest conversation about it
and just create maybe one agreement in the beginning that they can start practicing right away.
Maybe it might be a compromise, it might be whatever the thing is. If there's one thing
that they can start doing right away, it can actually be a huge win for both of them.
So do they take it separately or do they take it together?
So they take it separately and the score that you get, we just don't want it to be like oh yeah I got
this call but it's basically what we are trying to do is to help them know like okay these are
the things that you need to work on so that you can become a stronger team. So a stronger team because
because it's better to know that every time your in-laws talk about your spouse, this is
how you act.
And that's not really helping with your connection than for it to continue for years and years
and years.
And then you are still getting the resentment and you're still getting the fights at home
but you don't even know it's there or…
and also you don't know what to do to fix that issue.
Okay, so there's five dimensions right?
Yes, yes.
There are five areas and then you get your school and your spouse gets a school
Yes.
33:09Practical guidance for couples living apart
And then you each work on your…and you can choose which area you can then both work on.
Yes, so everybody…you take it alone because not everybody, not each couple is ready to
If their spouse wants to do it, that's great.
But what they get, they can start changing themselves
because sometimes you might wait and
you are not becoming the light in your house. You're waiting for
your spouse to change and what is happening is you guys are still
going through all these problems but sometimes they need
to see how life can be when somebody is doing
and then the resources that you provide are faith-based.
Yeah, yeah, the resources are faith based, faith based.
And that's where we're getting our philosophy,
our background is the faith based but that does not mean
anybody cannot use the resource.
We are not making sure everybody has to be a Christian before they proceed.
No, but it's just like the golden rule
It's biblical-based but it can help anybody
Right, okay
Yes or loving your neighbour or things like that
Yes you can get them from the Bible but it's a good idea to love your neighbour
Exactly
This is a good idea to work on these five elements of your marriage
Okay, okay
Is there anything that you wanted to add or anything we've missed out in this conversation?
I'll put all your links in the show notes but what would you say to a young couple starting out
cross-culturally? Yes, I will just tell them that to schedule especially if they are far away from each
other please schedule these phone calls. These connection moments, schedule them. Don't wait
until you feel like you are ready to quote unquote call and let everybody know that
every evening at six o'clock dad is calling or every like that way everybody like is getting
ready for that moment. You might not feel like it because it's different in different time zones,
you're about to go to bed some people are getting up in a different time zone but if they know
Before going to school, Dad will be calling. Every day that can get this rhythm in both homes
when you are abroad and the other one is here to make it that… You know what?
We still have that connection. And then during the day I'm a big advocate of sending messages,
text images, I love yous, voice notes and just to bring that connection.
Yes because now in different parts of the world unless you are an expert who's in a secret covert
operation most of them will still have a way to connect using WhatsApp and all that so it's easy
and across cultural marriage can work, right? You're the proof with the proof.
Yes it can work.
Absolutely. I agree. I think if couples can schedule quality time, if they can schedule those phone calls or video calls
and it becomes part of their routine,
then I think that they'll have a much,
much stronger connection.
Yeah.
And also knowing that just because I'm the one carrying
the heavy load of providing financially
and I'm outside the country,
she's also carrying the heavy load
of keeping the family at home,
like all the schedules, the kids,
all these things are at home.
They're two different loads but they are equally,
They are basically two heavy loads. So don't put like one is more sacrificed than the other
because it feels so bad when somebody's diminished with all the craziness they're dealing with at home
Somebody else to diminish what they are doing because they are the ones who went outside the country to work
Yeah, yeah
Thank you
Thank you so much, I will be pointing people your way. I'm curious, I might do the audit myself actually see where we are 20 years in
But thank you so much for sharing from your life and your experience
Thank you very much Rona
Thank you for having us
Hope you found this episode encouraging and that maybe you've found ideas to apply in your own situation.
Please leave me a review of what you found helpful, what you would like to hear about
and any other comments you'd like to leave. This helps other people find this podcast
and it also gives me feedback so it's very helpful. Thank you very much and until next time.
Credits and links
About this podcast appearance
Holding the Fort Abroad is hosted by Rhoda Bangerter. This page remains connected to the original public episode.
Learn more about Pesa Shayo, explore his books, or see more podcast appearances. Marriage resources are available from Live Your Best Marriage.