Podcast appearance
My wife almost left me. How I helped save our 20 year happy marriage w/ Pesa Shayo
Zuki and Pesa Shayo discuss the marriage wake-up call that forced Pesa to reconsider inherited expectations, share responsibility, and build a partnership across Kenyan and American cultures.
- Podcast
- Life As We See It with A and A
- Host
- Zuki
- Published
- Guest
- Pesa Shayo
Listen
Life As We See It with A and A
Episode overview
About this conversation
Pesa describes the moment Whitney said she was ready to leave and how that crisis exposed assumptions he carried about a husband's role, household work, listening, and responsibility.
The conversation expands into cross-cultural marriage, blending two family cultures, in-law involvement, changing expectations for men and women, racism, work at home, and the daily practices that helped the marriage recover.
Key takeaways
Marriage principles discussed
- A marriage crisis can reveal inherited beliefs that one spouse never examined.
- Both cultures should have equal dignity inside a cross-cultural home.
- Listening, household responsibility, and emotional presence communicate value.
- Extended-family involvement has to support rather than replace the couple's decisions.
- Lasting change is built through repeated daily behavior, not one dramatic apology.
Chapters
Conversation chapters
- The Marriage Wake-Up Call
- Awareness After the Birth of Their Third Daughter
- Cultural Advice and Wrong Information
- Listening, Respect, and Making a Spouse Feel Valued
- Blending Two Cultures at Home
- Hidden Assumptions and Family Traditions
- In-Laws and Marriage in America
- Outdated Marriage Expectations
- Sharing Household Responsibility
- How Global Access Changes Expectations
- Racism and Cross-Cultural Marriage
- Seeing Pressure Clearly
- Rebuilding Everyday Connection
Full transcript
Life As We See It with A and A transcript
Transcript note: Published with permission and formatted for readability. This transcript was automatically generated from the original public recording or caption track. Speaker names are omitted where the source did not identify them, and minor transcription errors may remain.
00:00The Marriage Wake-Up Call
One day, my wife was so frustrated and she's like, "I'm ready to leave." And I was like, "What?" She's like, "Yeah, bring the papers. I'll sign them." And I'm like, "Hold on. What's going on here?" [music] Welcome back to Life As We See It Podcast.
On today's episode, I have a wonderful guest. [music] His name is Pesa Shayo. Welcome, Pesa.
Thank you.
Pesa is an author and co-founder of Live Your Best Marriage. He helps cross-cultural Christian couples build a united front through in-law loyalty conflict, cultural expectations, and
outside pressure. So, he's here to share with us everything we need to know about in being in an interracial relationship, marriage, how you handle cultural differences in such marriages and relationships. Okay, let's just dive right into it. So, Pesa, if you don't mind, can you tell us more about
yourself? How do you see yourself? Who are you? So, I'm Pesa and uh originally I'm from Kenya and I live right now in San Antonio, Texas. And been married about more than 20 years to Whitney and she's American. And the reason why I'm actually even doing [music] my ministry
which our ministry which is live your best marriage not living it's li I ve live your best marriage is because of just all the issues that we had in our crosscultural marriage and most of it was because of beliefs that I used to
have but I never examined them and most of them was basically I call them assumptions. I used to assume things are supposed to be done a certain way. And I was very hardheaded about it. But I realized later that that is just how I
was raised and that's how I saw things, not how things are done in I guess in life or in a marriage. And that brought a lot of conflict in our marriage, which there was times that my wife wanted to get a divorce. Thank God I was able to
pause through that whole thing and literally God helped me through that whole process because I was able to start listening and not start stopping [music] stop thinking that my way was the way. Yes. And just to bring this into more practical ways was one thing I
believed as an African man like that I was raised to think that you need to be hardworking provide financially from your for your family and as long as you pay the bills take care of your family financially your job is done. I believe
that's all you. There was no issue of I need to be emotionally there. I need to communicate better. I need to know as long as I know I have paid the bills. [music] I am there for the kids financially, I'm good. But that wasn't
what she was raised to think that was right. She believed that not only a husband also needs to be there emotionally and a wife does not need to feel literally abandoned in a marriage.
Yeah. Wow. That's that's awesome. I love how aware of that you are. So, how long
did it take you to come to that awareness, that sense of awareness?
So, it had to have at the birth um of our third daughter. We have four girls. But when our third girl was little baby, I at that time I was working a lot of
03:08Awareness After the Birth of Their Third Daughter
doubles. So, like literally working 3 to 11, 11 to 7 every day like six nights a week. And I had so many of my friends doing the same thing. So, we just believed we were these great husbands doing the right thing. But, come home,
sleep, go to work. Come home, sleep, go to work. And one day, my wife was so frustrated and she's like, "Uh, I'm ready to leave." And I was like, "What?"
She's like, "Yeah, bring the papers. I'll sign them." And I'm like, "Hold on.
What's going on here? I'm doing the right thing." like you I felt like she was being um not um thankful like she was being ungrateful but I listened to that whole process paused and I decided to say okay you know what she might have
a point here maybe she's she's having two kids plus the third one at home doing all the chores she might not really connect that I'm also doing my part and I also need to show that I can listen to her points [music] and uh show
that I'm also a husband who can connect emotionally to her. So this was more than 10 years after we got married.
Yes.
Wow.
Yes. So do you think it would have been different if you were married to maybe a fellow African? Do you think the way our
culture is that African women are socialized to just take on that responsibility of being the homekeeper? The man goes out to work and the woman just does the house chores without complaining. Do you think if you were married I don't know if it's a fair
question to ask you but do you think the fact that you were married to yeah someone from a different race helped you?
I think back then 10 15 years ago that might be the the way pretty much all women are more aware of what they need in a
marriage because of like uh phones and the internet. So it doesn't matter where you are in the world, you have you are starting to appreciate that just paying the bills is not the only thing a man can provide in terms of like there's also that emotional aspect of a
marriage. So I think I wouldn't say it would have happened that way with an African woman, but I feel like back then [music] it would have makes sense.
Right. Right.
There's been a huge cultural shift in the past couple of years.
Yes. you know, regardless even with
African African women. I like that. And I'm glad you were able to just listen to her, to your wife, and make the changes you needed. So, was your ministry So, I guess your ministry was born out of this experience you had in your marriage.
Yes, the ministry was born out of this because I can see a lot of I can remember a lot of my friends going through this uh lot of divorces and things like that. Not because they wanted to have problems with their wives. They are really hardworking and
they really they mean they mean the best but they're having the wrong information. So, and some of them is just if they get the right information from somebody who looks like them, they might be like, "Okay, maybe this is what
06:05Cultural Advice and Wrong Information
I need to do when I get home to my wife. Maybe I need to put my phone down. Maybe I need to work a little bit less. There's just a little bit. Maybe I need to before I make a decision with my family of origin, I need to also consult
my wife." things that you might be raised. Okay. When a when like a family member from home calls you asking for money, you just know the right thing is to do is help, which is a great thing. But that might also be bringing other problems in your marriage because your
wife might be thinking, hold on, this is our money. We need to talk first before you send it. And you might take it very, you might be very upset about it because you're like, hold on, my family member is needing help. I have no time to talk
about it. Which might bring a lot of resentment in your marriage without even knowing.
Yeah.
Yes.
Especially for someone of a different race. I feel like Africans, we know we owe our families that responsibility of support, but I I imagine like an American American culture isn't built
that way. So,
yes,
I I I definitely know it will be a lot of like trying to buy them into the whole idea.
Yes. You know, so and sometimes it's just remembering that because even the Bible tells us, we help a lot of
crosscultural Christian couples. So the Bible tells us to live and cleave. Okay, so we are leaving and starting a new family unit and two become one. Yes, we get that part. But also the Bible tells us to be respectful and honoring our parents. [music] So those two things
have to come into play. I'm not disrespecting my parents. I'm thankful for what they did to me. I'm thankful for my uncles, my cousins, what they did to me. But at the same time, I have this family unit that I need to protect too.
So you are basically playing a game of balancing and at the end of the day you are realizing that your top loyalty will go to the family that you are creating here.
Yeah, that's true. That's true. So let me go to the in-law portion of it. So
what was your family's reaction to seeing you, you know, transform, become this person that would now come back from a busy, you know, double and help his wife and was emotionally available for the wife and the children. What was it? Because in in Africa, I
mean, the man sits in the living room, watches TV, and the woman cooks in the kitchen and brings and serves him,
you know. So, how did they feel? Did they feel like you were getting emasculated or something?
Yes. So some of them might have been
speaking behind um closed doors like okay he's he's losing it
but the truth is they are the same ones who are also going through problems with with their wives. Just just because just because your wife is from Africa does not mean she doesn't want somebody to
treat her with respect. Somebody to listen to her when they put their phone down and actually listen to her and somebody who makes her feel more valued. Yes. That and I don't speak for everybody but I know times have changed. Africa and America women are also
09:07Listening, Respect, and Making a Spouse Feel Valued
expecting pretty much the same things.
Yeah.
Yes. So yes, they might have made jokes behind closed doors, but again, some of them were going through the same problems. They were going through the what do you call it? The anger, the disrespect, the people feeling very is a
word I'm looking for. Holding a grudge because they feel like their husband is not really treating them with respect at home. Yeah.
Yeah. That's true. That's true. So I've heard some people talk about say this but some people feel like African men
and it's just I don't know how true it is or I I want to hear your thoughts on this. So some people feel feel that African men regard their foreign wives higher value them more than they would value you know their fellow African
person. So do you see any truth to that? Some people I've read it in a lot of forums spoken that way you know like African women are the most you know a lot of African men like African men don't value African women basically you
know they devalue them but if they marry someone from a different race is like oh there's so much you know respect and value please place you know that that's very painful even to hear because and it's it's hard for me to [music] speak
about it like to speak on it because I believe that every human is a child of God and I have sisters who I have sisters, my kids are also black. So, it's not that I don't have that in my life. So, it's very unfortunate that
somebody will treat their own sisters and uh sisters really with a disrespect. And yeah, that's a tough one. That's why I said it's what I I hear it on the street. It's what on the street. I don't know if there's any truth to it, but I
just thought to ask that. But yeah, I know it's it's not fair. It doesn't sound, you know, like a like the fair thing to to do. Yeah,
it's not it's not fair. And um I think if somebody
And I think it's also Sorry, go ahead.
And I think if somebody's doing that, I think they also have some low self-esteem issues.
That's true.
That's the right way to say to put it. Yeah.
Cuz it shows you hate yourself, right? Yeah.
Yes,
that's true.
Yes,
that's true. I don't think it's it's I I don't think we should generalize. I think it's just individual by individual. some some people with low self-esteem probably would you know be that way and which is wrong.
Yeah. Just the the idea that you can
hate a whole group of people just I don't know I don't like
Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Okay. We can move on from that. So what has been other challenges or experiences you've had in your interracial intercultural marriage and how have you been able to like merge
12:01Blending Two Cultures at Home
both cultures you and your wife? And I like what you said, merge both cultures, because this is it's the belief that even if you are in somebody else's country, when you're in your own home, both cultures are equal. So none none is above the other because some people say,
"Oh, you know what? Now you're in America, you need to in your own home like you're basically taking over the American culture." No, both should be equal. And some of the things that we've done like um sometimes we make for example naming our kids where I come
from we name our kids after like our relatives. So we start with either my grandpa, my grandfather or my grandmother and then we just go down the line. But where my wife comes from and this is to show how different things are. She believed that because she gave
birth to the child, she has a right to name her child. Sounds like okay, she believed. Okay, I have to name my child. Me and my whole family are literally waiting for that kid because we know my grandma is being born and then we're just going down the
line. So, we had to come have a compromise on that thing which is I we pick the second like the middle name, she picks the first name and then my last name is the kid's last name. But we had to have the compromise because without it
like that.
Yes. We had I had the assumption and I when I mean assumption I mean I didn't even think there was another way. The way is to name your kids after your relatives and I was so proud of I used to be so proud with my cousins because
we share the same name bunch of our cousin because we are named after the same person. So we we go to a reunion and we have the same name. But in this culture her culture being unique is the most important thing. The idea that you
can have the same name with five other kids didn't make sense for us. So having that compromise worked out very well. So we created our little culture when it comes to naming kids.
What about things like food?
Yeah, food. Thank god she's a very good
cook. And so she's still able to cook. She has learned to cook like the African foods that I like.
Nice.
Rice, pilao, just several different African foods that I like. And also she eats she eats it. And also a great thing is my kids also speak Swahili.
I was going to ask that next language. So they speak Swahili now.
Yeah. So yes. So my girls also speak Swahili. So they speak English and Swahili and that's something that I've taught them just going on and now they can be able to have a conversation in
Swahili. So when they're talking to their cousins in Kenya, they just can talk in Swahili.
That's nice. Yeah. I always admire people in in such interra like similar to an interracial or intercultural relationship because it's a lot of work like marriage on its own is hard work
then putting that layer of that cultural difference you know
yes
I can imagine how much how much stress that can put if you don't actively work on it so it's nice that you guys are working around it
the word is actively act on act on it
15:08Hidden Assumptions and Family Traditions
because you you wouldn't believe how many assumptions that if you're coming from the same cultures. How many assumptions both of you have and you don't even think about it like let's say Thanksgiving's day. I grew up in a place where we did not have any Thanksgiving
day. We were just there was no thanksgiving. Here in America there's a Thanksgiving. So now we had to create our little Thanksgiving where we not just having the turkey but we also need to have some African food. So we have our we have team we call it Team Shayo
thanksgiving where we have our own different types of foods but we've created our own little Thanksgiving which was we had to be very intentional about it.
That's nice. So what other kind of what what other type of cultural or maybe in-law conflict have you faced? So
again, let me I'm originally from Nigeria and in Nigerian I I assume is same in Kenyan culture where if you marry into a family, you're not just marrying or if you're marrying a man, you're not just marrying his him but you're also marrying his family.
Yes.
So such that your in-laws, your parents, your siblings have authority even over your wife like to dictate what happens in the house. Some families take it to the extreme, right? So how has that been with your wife? like just has she been able to integrate or like yes that's
very that's very important and I thank God that with my family when we go to reunions they treat her as one of the one of the family but it just happens that they don't um I guess treat her as one of the family they have a great time
with her but this thing about like telling her what to do you know some some some some old
sometimes some people old people might take it to another level.
Yeah,
it's not it hasn't happened in where I
come from. But I I can see how it can be a a big problem because she comes from a place where she needs to decision with her husband versus some person who she she has met like maybe once or twice telling her how to make choices in her
life. She will listen and be be nice about it, but we have to talk about it before we proceed. Yes. But we always believe that if you're having so many problems with in-laws, like in-laws, okay, in-laws basically all the time telling you um basically running your
marriage. We believe that it's just a symptom that husband and wife are not united. If let's say my wife all the time goes and make decisions with her mom and then brings those decision to the house without us having a conversation about it that just tells me
that we are not united somebody else is making decisions for us. So we can blame her mom but at the end of the day it just it's a symptom that we are not on the same page on that issue. And just to
18:03In-Laws and Marriage in America
add on that, I think it's harder in this country when it comes to in-laws because I think I've seen in a lot of families where the girl's mom or the the the dad's girl's mom mostly spend like um pay for so many things in the marriage.
So they pay for the wedding, they might give a down payment for the house. And all these things that you are they are paying for will also bring some strings attached. Cuz where I come from, the man the man's side of the family pays for
the wedding. Like it's seen as a dishonor if my father-in-law is going to pay for my wedding. But in here, I've seen a lot where the culture here is the girl's family will pay for it. I culturally I don't like that because I
feel like it comes with so many strings attached.
Yes,
that's true. I didn't know that about American culture. I didn't know it was the woman's family that paid.
Yes. I thought it was more of the couple footing their bills by themselves.
Yeah. And it's moving away to a little bit. It's moving to some couples paying for their wedding, especially if it's the second marriage or things like that. But mostly if it's the first marriage, the girl's dad will pay for it. So I wanted to ask right we're Africans and
over the past couple of years there's been a huge movement of Africans or migration into foreign countries America, Canada, UK and the rest. And along alongside that we hear a lot of stories of marital violence, divorce you know arising from this type of migrations.
A couple or marriage that was doing well back in Africa you know no issues. The woman knows her position. The man knows his position especially in a patriarchal kind of setting and then they come here the woman suddenly flips.
Yes.
Because the man expects the same he
doesn't expect the woman to change that expects the same constant you know but the woman changes and it becomes a problem. How how would you advise such couples to navigate like this type of scenario? So this is basically what I'm saying. It doesn't matter which if it's
a an African lady or an American lady. They have they start they have different expectations and you know one thing let's say you're living in back home and you move here you are needed you are b you basically become a new person because you are needed to do different
things. You you are supposed to pay bills. You you are learning a new language. You you are learning how to interact people differently. At the end of the day, you become a a new person. I feel like women are good at changing quickly and adop adopting and fitting in
a new culture quickly. While some of us who are stuck in the old ways, we become very rigid.
This is how it was done. This is how I'm going to do it and I'm not going to change. And that becomes a big big big
problem. We are not saying that changing will make you lose respect in your own house. I believe there's ways that you can actually honor your wife and actually she will love you more. Not only love you more because she remembers that you you guys came together from
Africa. You have a longer history. But I think when somebody is very rigid, they don't see things are changing now. They're still yelling, calling names, doing things which are like come on this is 2026. Like you just cannot do that. And you know, she is able to work. She's
21:14Outdated Marriage Expectations
treated with respect.
People actually listen to her. Maybe she has a job where she's in charge of a a whole group of people. She's seen how respect can be afforded to her and then she comes home and it's like we are back
in the stone ages. That might not really work well for her. So I believe change being able to change I think is very important.
Yes.
I love that. So how can they because again like you said women are quicker to adapt but the men are the ones stuck.
How can men you know begin to unstick or get unstuck from those mindsets? Because for you it took the threat of a divorce you know to make you amend your ways. So for a man listening for instance how can they come out of that mindset. I think
the first thing, like let's say if you go home tonight, you guys have like the usual. You're fighting, you're arguing, and you're coming home, you're tired, the kids and all that. I think the most important thing is just put the phone down.
Mhm.
Like when you're having that
conversation, just put the phone down and listen to her. It's going to be she's going to she might say things which you might be like, "Hold on, I am not going to take this." And then you you might respond and the argument continues as usual. But pausing, listen
and say, "You know what? I see your point. I I totally see your point." You might not see it, but let her know that you are listening to her and you see her point. And you can start from there. Sometimes she might just be having her
guard up because she knows that's what happens every evening. You might surprise her by just saying, "You know what? You're right. We need I need to help out more in this house." Like, hold on. What What did you just say? Yeah. Yeah, you're right. And because [laughter]
Yeah. Because she already knows you'll say no.
Yeah.
So sometimes just changing that might stop the whole conversation or even on your way home you can call her and say what do you want me to bring home and not the Yeah. So that she can actually
feel like somebody is also helping her in term instead of she she's working just like you but she also has to worry about the kids. Go to the teachers conference. you never show up and doing all those things, but she's also doing doubles just like you. It might be very
frustrating.
Yeah. Yeah. So, basically just putting yourself in her shoes. Yeah. I think that's very powerful what you just said because I don't think a lot of women don't ask for too much. I think a lot of the a lot of the stories I've heard
around marital issues stems from like the man not pulling his weight when it comes to helping around the house cuz it's especially in in in foreign countries like this. back home we could afford like having help you know help is cheap is affordable but here is
24:02Sharing Household Responsibility
expensive so you don't want the woman to just carry the whole burden when the Bible calls that the weaker vessel you know
yes
and um yeah and and I always say things have changed the way you used to think that lady that you had in Africa that
lady is not the same for her to function in America she has to become a different person
it's not the same person you left with back home. And she also has seen how how how worthy she's she's she's been reminded over and over on her phone, on
Instagram, and how valuable she is.
That's true.
So, she already knows she's valuable. And sometimes she she has a job where they're calling her, asking her questions, she's solving issues. So, she knows she's good. So, you got to work with her,
right? You have to step up, get, you know, get with the program. Okay. Let me ask you this question. This is another one I see online. Okay.
So, who does marriage benefit more? Men or women or both?
I think both.
Okay.
Both because I think both. I think it benefits both because if you
I agree too.
Yeah. It benefits both. And I think it's harder for both. If you're shuffling kids from two different houses, paying uh alimony and child support, and I
think it's more of a disruption for both. And it's much easier for I think it's much easier for to doing these things than dealing with the consequences of a separation. Yeah. Times when you hear people saying, "Oh man, I'm I'm paying this. I'm paying that." Basically, what they are saying
is they don't want to take responsibility of their kids after they have their kids. And I hate to to be on this uh soap box, but you're basically saying somebody will take care of your own child. So, yeah.
Yeah. Well, there are people like that
who are okay with other people taking care of their children,
you know, and that's not good. And remember, most of the ladies, even after you have a divorce, they'll still have to take care of their kids child.
Yep.
Yeah.
Yep. That's true. Women are still they
still the sole caretaker of of children most most of the time. Yeah. You know, I would say maybe many years ago like you know you mentioned it earlier maybe 15 20 years ago back in Africa. I think maybe this question I would have said marriage benefited men more.
Yes.
You know because of the way the culture was but with the way things are changing I think it definitely benefits both people.
Yes. And and back then many years ago before having a phone then information was very limited. So you are only getting information from in your from
your own village or from your own city. But now just because you are in Nairobi does not mean you are not getting access to information from any [music] place in the world. So and not only so you are getting access to that information and
they are also getting access to your information from wherever from even Nairobi. So at the end of the day you cannot just say just because she's in Africa she doesn't know these things. She might even be the one teaching people in America,
27:07How Global Access Changes Expectations
right? The world is such a global like it's so it's in the palm of our hand like just in the phone like just opening your phone and you see the world as it is today. And I think it's been very beneficial for people as well that have
been in abusive relationships you know cuz I know people Instagram Tik Tok you see a lot of story of women coming share about their marriages you know abusive marriage and what courage what it took them to leave right so a woman in Africa wherever watching them are like oh wow
so people have the courage to okay I too can leave so I agree with you in that sense [music] more enlightening and that's really good also they have now they have the words what they going through. Yeah. So if they going through abuse, they can
actually say, "I'm going through abuse." And they have that word. Before they will just say, "Oh,
yeah." They know it's painful, but they didn't know what to say. Yeah. And they don't even know it's they think it's unique to them. They don't realize it's
not just them. It's happening. You know, like if you see your problem in someone else, you're like, "Okay, this is not just me." And it gives you that power to even want to, you know, to make a change,
to do something about it. Yes. Yes.
So, what should someone in who is planning to be in a in an interracial or intercultural relationship or marriage, what what what is something they should be prepared for, aware of and should get themselves ready for before going into it? Okay. I would say um if you you are
really thinking about getting married in a interracial intercultural marriage, you can ask first. Number one, you need to be more open-minded in terms, yes, you are already open-minded to the point that you are doing this, but I think you need to be more open-minded in terms of
questioning some of the assumptions that you have. And you might think this is how things were done or this is just this is just life, but actually you are viewing it from your own lens, not from other people's lenses. So being okay, questioning how things are done and
asking questions, being curious. You can ask things like like for example, do you have any if you're marrying somebody from a culture where they are more collective, they do things collectively, ask questions like do you have any responsibilities like you are supposed to provide for your family like back
home. Things like are you are you the one who's going to pay school fees for your brothers and sisters? Are you the one who's supposed to build a house for your parents? Ask questions like that so that it's not a surprise
when you are married and then they're
like, "Hold on, my brother is still in school. I'm supposed to pay his school fees." And then you're like, "Hold on, we can't even afford to live here. What do you mean you're saving money?" Have these conversations before. I think it's going to save you a lot of headache.
30:04Racism and Cross-Cultural Marriage
Yeah.
And it's not like uh does not mean that you you you still cannot get married. which just means that you are you know how to deal with you. It's not a surprise.
Yeah. Okay, that's good. So, what about things like racism? How do you navigate
that? Um because marrying especially if you're marrying someone of a different race. It might not be and I and I don't know I I I don't know if I'm even asking this question the right way or if it's even necessary, but I feel like
sometimes your partner is okay with you, but your partner's family might be racist towards you. So did you experience any of that both from your wife experiencing it from your side or you experiencing it from her own side?
And you know that's like very
interesting because when back in the day there was a little bit of hesitation from her side but most people go by what they go by the energy that you're putting out. We always joke around. We always me and my wife joke around that.
Do you remember when long time ago when we were dating and it felt like everybody was looking at us and it felt like everybody was not approving? But now it's like we forgot about everybody. Now we are just living our life because you get to a point that everything just
you forget about it. But the few like when you are new you're so self-conscious about it and you self-conscious about it but you are in a way making other you in a way making like you are projecting that to other people
but after a while honestly you're just
raising kids just the same way you are raising kids and somebody might disagree with me right now they're like okay hold on you live in a country that there's so much racism you live in a state where people [music] might say it's too racist
but I honestly just do my thing it just happens like I just I can function every day and I don't see it.
I love that.
Maybe I'm oblivious.
I love that. It's a good way to be cuz if you go looking for it, you'll find it. [laughter]
Yes.
Like you said, you're projecting it onto others. Yeah. You'll find it if you go looking for it.
You you find it. And most I believe like most people, this is a hard this is something I really believe. Most people,
even if they think, even if they are racist, whatever, you will always find a way to communicate with them. Let's say I go to a gas station and you might say, "Okay, this person is racist." But most of the time, we'll be able to have a
conversation because they are just regular people worrying about their grandkids, worrying about their back pain. They're just regular humans who you can find a way to communicate with them. Most people are not just going to come and start punching you for no reason. Now, someone might say, "Hold
on, there's all these videos and uh this is what's happening." But in my experience, there's always a way to communicate. And I've never had that problem. Yes.
So, just being yourself and people will come around really.
Yes.
When you're yourself, people will come around regardless, you know.
Yeah. And just remember, you are not the first you're not the first black person. and and and there's a lot who have lived and they never had those experiences that uh yes, I'm not denying that there's racism, but there's a lot of
33:09Seeing Pressure Clearly
people who are able to live their life all day long like live their lives without really experiencing that. Or maybe it's there, but they don't see it. Yeah.
And I agree. I agree. I think it's not a right way to be to just always think
because you're black, you know, people are mean to you, you know, like everything just boils down to race. No, not everything boils down to race. Sometimes people just don't like you because you're not a nice person or because you're not just, you know, yeah,
not everyone will like you. So, I think sometimes when we just focus so much on race, it doesn't we don't help oursel because we don't make the changes we need to make. We just keep thinking, oh, it's someone else and not me. So, I love that.
You're right. And sometimes you you do so much and you forget that they they are able to work with you while you're still black. You go to Walmart, you go to a store, you you take a bus, you do all these things. You take a plane,
they're just serving you.
Yeah.
And you're still black and they never say anything. But that one time that somebody said something wrong, it becomes the biggest problem. But most of the time, you function. You go to school, come home, do all these things. Neighbors are nice. Nobody says
anything. You're able to rent, buy, buy a car, buy an where people are selling these things to you. You are buying them from them. Nobody says anything,
making friends.
That's good to know. That's good to know. I'm sure it's encouragement for someone else to planning on an
interracial marriage. You know that, hey, a family can actually welcome you. Like there's [music] that tension people imagine isn't there. So, just relax and settle into it. Okay. So, well, as we're rounding off now, what are you working on now? I know you've written a couple
of books. Can you tell us briefly about those books?
Yes.
And where can people find you if they want to reach you?
So, let me get up one of the books. Yes. The books I've written like this one, uh, questions for culturally and ethically diverse couples.
Can we see? Can you?
Yes.
Okay. Okay.
And they can find it on Amazon. What goes on? And this is for somebody who um is either married to um a cross culture. Somebody's in a in a crosscultural marriage. Just in pretty much every
marriage, you can encourage people to talk. It's like, yeah, you know what? You need to stop fighting. You need to start having a conversation. And for a lot of folks, they don't know what to say. Really, they don't know. Other than fighting and arguing and talking about
kids and in-laws and all this and how people don't like us, they really don't know what to say. So the good thing about it is they can get a book they can look and start just going through the question um like and just two three
questions a day you can um just to break the ice so that you can start learning to have like a different communication style and different uh way of communicating with your wife or your husband because sometimes you show [music] up you just go back to the same
36:02Rebuilding Everyday Connection
routine. How come my food is cold? How come you don't make How come you don't make food like my mom? Like whatever. But it's this life in America is hard. We have to pay too many bills. Whatever. But if you start you can go through this
and start asking different questions and you'll find that in your house you can start having a different conversation. So it's not just have a improve your communication but what do we do? I don't know what to say.
Get the book. And we have this is this
is for uh cross-cultural couples, but we also have another one for just a couple that might be needing questions to ask each other.
Okay.
And just to break the ice at home.
So, not just communicating, but there are questions you need to ask. So,
knowing what those questions are, your book provides all of that.
Yes.
And it just makes makes life easy. Like you can say, hey, you know what? I need to know a little bit about you. So, uh, what kind of food did your grandma give
you when you are sick? And somebody might say, "Oh my goodness, thank you for reminding me that." And my grandma was the best cook ever. And then you can take it from there. I love you don't cook well.
Oh boy. Okay. Okay. So, people can get
the book from Amazon, right?
Yeah. From Amazon.
Yes. So, all your books on Amazon. Okay. I'll try and put the link. I'll put the link in the show notes of the podcast and the description box of the YouTube channel. Okay. I'll put that there so
they can reach out. And then where can they find you if they wanted to follow you?
So they can always find me at leaveyoubestmarriage.com. So li I vyoubestmarriage.com. And if they're on Instagram and they like memes sent to them all the time,
every day, several times a day, they can follow us on Instagram at Live Your Best Marriage on Instagram. So Live Your Best Marriage on Instagram. And on our website, we have what we call the United Front Audit. This is for anybody. Just go there, ask answer a few questions and
you can see how united you are in your marriage because at least so you can have an idea. Okay, this is where we are struggling.
Mhm.
When it comes to having a united front as a marriage, as a couple.
That's a good one. I love that.
Yeah. We try to be very very practical. So just not just telling people to do like be nice to each other but okay what do I what do I say?
Yes.
I love that. Okay. I'll put all your information in the description box the
show notes of the podcast and also on the screen so that people can connect with you. Yes. Any final words before we draw the cutting.
So the final words is remember before you got married she was your best friend. That's why you decided to get
married to her. Make sure you you haven't turned her to an enemy. always look at her like, you know what? She was my best friend. That's why we decided to get married. Let's continue that.
That's awesome. Wow. Thank you so much, Bessa. I really, really enjoyed this episode. Um,
thank you very much.
I've learned quite some I've learned quite a lot and I'm sure our listeners and audience would have learned a lot as well. So, thank you and hope to have you again. If you if you want to come back,
it's open for you to come back and share with us what you're doing. Thank you very much for having me and helping me get in front of your audience.
Thank you very much. Thank you so much for listening, for watching. Hope you enjoyed this episode. Please like,
comment, share, subscribe, and keep coming back for more episode. Thank you. Bye-bye. [music]
Credits and links
About this podcast appearance
Life As We See It with A and A is hosted by Zuki. This page remains connected to the original public episode.
Learn more about Pesa Shayo, explore his books, or see more podcast appearances. Marriage resources are available from Live Your Best Marriage.