Podcast appearance
United We Stand: Cross-cultural Marriage with Pesa and Whitney Shayo
April and Aaron Au talk with Pesa and Whitney Shayo about assumptions, cultural differences, friendship, and Christ-centered unity in marriage.
- Podcast
- The Living Marriages Podcast
- Host
- April Au and Aaron Au
- Published
- Guest
- Pesa Shayo
Listen
The Living Marriages Podcast
Episode overview
About this conversation
April and Aaron Au talk with Pesa and Whitney Shayo about assumptions, cultural differences, friendship, and Christ-centered unity in marriage.
The conversation covers assumptions in cross-cultural marriage, naming children and unexpected cultural conflict, friendship as a foundation for unity, seeing your spouse as a friend, not an enemy, how jesus brings unity, resources for couples.
Key takeaways
Marriage principles discussed
- Assumptions in cross-cultural marriage.
- Naming children and unexpected cultural conflict.
- Friendship as a foundation for unity.
- Seeing your spouse as a friend, not an enemy.
- How Jesus brings unity.
- Resources for couples.
Chapters
Conversation chapters
Full transcript
The Living Marriages Podcast transcript
Transcript note: Published with permission and formatted for readability. This transcript was automatically generated from the original public recording or caption track. Speaker names are omitted where the source did not identify them, and minor transcription errors may remain.
00:00Introduction and guest background
One of the hardest things that we went through was trying to name our first baby.
Oh, wow!
Yeah, when we were having our first child, my in-laws wanted to pick the name because I guess
in Kenya they have a tradition where you know you've named the kid after the aunt or the
grandma or just whoever, you know whose turn it is at that time basically and I grew up
thinking that, well it's my baby and I'm gonna pick the name.
I'm going through the pregnancy, I'm gonna be the one taking care of the baby so why don't
I name her?
Yeah.
And thank goodness we were able to work out a compromise.
Life is hard but marriage doesn't have to be.
We're Erin and April out, marriage mentors and coaches.
Yes, marriage is complex and our selfish human nature both pulls and pushes us apart.
But God has so much more for our marriages.
Thank you for joining us at the Living Marriages podcast where we share stories of hope and learn how God wants to breathe his life
healing and health into our marriages
Well, welcome to this edition of The Living Marriages podcast
We are so excited to have some new friends on the show joining us from our neighbors to the south
We have Pesa and Whitney Shayo, they're with Live Your Best Marriage and they are marriage coaches.
They have a podcast called Live Your Best Marriage.
They've co-authored several books together
And we are thrilled to have them on the Living Marriages podcast today.
Welcome, Pesa and Whitney.
Thank you very much, Erin and April.
Thank you for having us.
We're so excited to hear just a little bit about your own story as a cross-cultural interracial couple
and just what God has done in your lives, in your life as a married couple,
to bring you to where you are now. So why don't you just tell us about you guys? Where did you meet?
How did you get 22 years into marriage with four children? Just tell us a bit about you.
Well, when we met actually Pesa was attending college in the same small town Kansas where I
was growing up and after he graduated we both ended up working at the same place. And so we just hit it
off really well and sometimes we say the rest is history but you know there's so much that has
happened and so much that God has done and we're just really grateful for it. There's a lot to
to share. Well, dig into your story because I think it's fascinating and we ourselves,
our interracial marriage and Pesa you're from Kenya, Whitney from Kansas, describe those
early years of your relationship in your marriage, how were things? In the early years it felt
like everything just worked out during the dating it seems like whatever I thought she
She would just basically complete my sentence as it says.
That was just a great, we always remember that time as everything was so magical but what
we did not appreciate after getting married is things started slowing down well and we
felt like we had no control of what was happening.
I'm finding out later that actually the fact that I came from Kenya and she was from the
United States, I was carrying a lot of assumptions which I really were always thinking that the
way I viewed the world was just the way it's supposed to be.
I didn't really appreciate that she also had her own way of viewing things and sometimes
her assumptions were not my assumption so I'm making a decision assuming that she will also
she understands what I mean. For example, when we talk about family, her definition of family was not
my definition of family. I thought when I'm talking about somebody's my family, I meant cousins, uncles,
nieces, nephews, all these people. Sometimes even if I meet somebody from my hometown
and we hit it off, I start calling him brother. And I feel like they're really my brother
which for her that was didn't make sense because she was looking more into like mom and dad
and kids. And it's very clear they have to be related, it's a small group of people and
04:43Assumptions in cross-cultural marriage
you are very clear about how you are related just the fact that your dad was a friend of
his dad and now you guys all of a sudden our brothers that did not make sense to him.
I've experienced that too being married to Aaron.
and Chinese background. Yeah, and there are a lot of cousins and aunts and uncles that are not related
by blood and that was something for me to get used to too. That was a big one and sometimes it felt
like questioning me some of these things like who are you talking to? And why are you talking
to them all the time because all the time I was on the phone talking to all my family
and she's like we need to spend more time together. And I felt like at first it's like oh are you trying
to separate me from my family, my side of the family? But that's not what she meant. Yeah I mean
it was interesting to find out how involved extended family was just in daily life for
I mean on his side because i was so used to just you know mom, dad, kids like just your household
I think he took offense to that. I think he kind of felt like I did not want all these people around
but that wasn't the case. I mean I was just a little bit overwhelmed because I'm thinking
oh my goodness this is a lot of people we have around and this is a lot of people that
that we are including in some of our decision-making as well.
One of the big things that you realized initially
was that your worldview surrounding what family was
was very different.
What did it look like then to work through that together
and find a common ground when it came
to talking about, what is family to us?
Yes.
Actually, one of the hardest things that we went through was trying to name our first baby.
Oh yeah. When we were having our first child my in-laws wanted to pick the name because I guess
in Kenya they have a tradition where you know you've named the kid after the aunt or the grandma
or just whoever, you know whose turn it is at that time basically.
And I grew up thinking that well it's my baby and I'm gonna pick the name.
I'm going through the pregnancy, I'm gonna be the one taking care of the baby so why don't I name her?
Yeah.
And thank goodness we were able to work out a compromise.
I picked the first name and then Pesa chose a Swahili name as their middle name. And so that was
one of our first really big challenges that we faced, you know? And also like just trying to make
that compromise. It's a really incredible example of man this is intercultural dynamics right in your
face. Yeah. Pesa, how did your parents receive that? The people who wanted to have this naming
Yes.
My grandma. She at the same time was very clear that, hey, I was the one who went through this
pregnancy. I am the one who has been looking through the names from the baby's book and
I'm the one who is going to name the baby. So balancing those things was very stressful
but luckily… And I always say thank God because I don't know where that sense of
I'm trying to give her what she wants, at the same time I'm getting what we want.
Like if both of us did not come up with a compromise that would have been a big problem because
in America she had the right you're the mom you name the baby that's just such a no-brainer
but in another country it's also a no-brainer that we are naming after a relative
Right. I really thank God that she was even able to be able to compromise with us because it would have been such a big problem going through life with these kids not even knowing their side, they're the side of their family and what's so funny is now when we I go to my in-laws
09:26Naming children and unexpected cultural conflict
The kids know how to behave in two different situations because they know, okay on this
side when I'm talking about this grammar I think it just becomes so normal to them to switch
around. Yeah, yeah. And they're very proud that they have two heritages. Okay, we're gonna ask
too, because obviously this affects the children and we'll I think come back to drilling into
that topic with kids a bit more later because I'd love to explore that a bit but I also have another
question I guess this was one real world example of where cultures collided can you give us a few
and more. We always talk about in marriage ministry that the pain points often are in
laws, you spoke to that a bit but also finances intimacy where else have you seen cross-cultural
understandings come into tension in some of these other areas?
Well I would say definitely food. We both had very different ideas of what we should be having
for dinner. One evening when we had only been married for I think maybe three months or so,
Pesa actually went and bought goat meat. And he brought it home unprocessed
and I had never seen meat you know like that before. That much meat too.
Yeah there was a lot of it. Half a goat.
and I really was half a goat. Yeah, we split me and my friend with split a goat so yeah.
And um i wasn't thrilled but I figured out a way to make a stew that night and I stopped it for dinner.
Um were able to laugh about it now but that evening it was there was not a lot of laughter
because that evening was, oh this stinks, oh this stinks.
And so and that's the sad thing is like she's really,
she's expressing how she feels which like it stinks
which is true it stinks but I take it as she's attacking me
because for some reason I was really thinking okay
it's like she doesn't like me
and where I come from goat meat was just the best
So there is like chicken and then goat meat. Goat meat was like another level of greatness.
Very special.
Very special, and for somebody just to say it stinks, like oh my god this is different.
Now I wish at that time I really understood that she wasn't attacking me. It was basically
yeah it did stink and it would have been processed better because she had never seen something
that is really unprocessed. Yes, and I'm expecting her to not only prepare it, cut it up and all
that. It's a skill that she didn't have. But in my mind, I thought, okay, anybody should be able
to do this. You just grab a knife and you start cutting small pieces and start preparing the steel.
So earlier on, you talked about how when you got married,
you didn't even realize the ways that your world views were different
and it was over time that things would come up
and you'd realize, oh I thought this was just the way it was
but clearly that's not the way you think it is.
And so i'm curious how as these situations came up
you also said Pesa that
you wish that you had known then
that she was not attacking you
and your culture
So what has communication looked like between the two? How have you grown in your communication about how to recognize that it's just a difference, maybe a big difference sometimes
but that you're not attacking one another. How has that looked?
So for me, it's eventually realizing that she is not my enemy.
That taking myself back to when we were dating, like she would never do anything wrong.
Because we were dating but she was also my really dear friend.
So being able to realize that yes, she might be tired, yes, she might not understand what I'm talking about.
14:09Friendship as a foundation for unity
Actually we did figure out that, hey, we're friends. You know what I mean?
We don't really need to feel so rejected every time one of us says something or questions something.
The friendship has gotten stronger over the years and I think that's where our communication skills have grown
because when you're willing to give each other the benefit of doubt, then I think you're more
willing to listen too. Because communication is not just talking, I mean there's a lot of listening
involved as well so definitely friendship. Okay that's great wisdom not just for interracial
couples but for every couple listening to this. We talked about your kids a little bit earlier,
You have four children. What has it meant for them growing up in an interracial,
intercultural family? What would have been their joys? You said they're proud to be able to have
an American name and a Swahili name. What have been some of the challenges as well for them?
I haven't really noticed a whole lot of challenges with them because we did start pretty young
encouraging them to just embrace both of their, you know, their dad's culture as well as things
that they love about this culture. As well we did have a point in time where our second oldest
kind of felt like she really didn't fit in either place and that was kind of a tough,
that was like a rough spot but thankfully she was able to work through that fairly quickly I think and
maybe that's um, I think actually Pesa did a great job of helping her with that and just reminding
her that actually she's very very fortunate because she has both. She has a rich heritage
from her dad side as well as from her mother's side and she should just um, I think have fun
and celebrating all of that.
Yeah, she's the one who always like asked these deep questions and she's able to express herself more
And I feel like Whitney has helped here when it comes to both of them are bilingual so they speak Swahili
and also English. So that I feel like it's really has really helped them to be able not to feel left
out when they're speaking with their cousins because they feel like if the conversation switches
to Swahili, they can speak Swahili too. Not only that, they have worked so hard, so very proud of
them that they are very advanced. They can carry out a conversation with their grandparents,
they can go toe to toe which I feel like it makes them more proud that they also know this
language so they are not being excluded. I was going to say, that's a beautiful gift
that you've given your kids. I again grew up Chinese family but didn't learn the language growing
up so i did sometimes feel excluded and it's not my parents fault at all that was just the situation
where you're in but now I'm trying to make sure my kids are getting exposure to my culture and
I'm trying to reintegrate some of my culture as well, my Chinese culture
It feels like a really important piece
Yeah that's really neat that your kids have that gift
Yes
So 22 years of marriage
And you've learned a lot clearly over those 22 years about communication
and just figuring out what your culture as a family is
And so how did Live Your Best Marriage come out of all of this?
So Live Your Best Marriage actually got started after we had been married for about 10 years.
We hit a really rough spot.
Pesa was working, I want to say six nights a week as a nurse and these were double shifts.
18:53Seeing your spouse as a friend, not an enemy
So he would leave from 2 p.m. and then come back like around 8 a.m. the next morning.
And so and then he would sleep after that.
So it was sort of like this never ending cycle I think of just craziness at our house.
I was at home taking care of the three little ones that we had at that time and I honestly
felt he was more connected to you know, the people that he worked with.
That's kind of like the impression that I got.
I would be sitting at home by myself and I would see people interacting on Facebook
And I'm like, okay well that's great for them
He has all these nice co-worker friends and whatnot
Just sitting here changing diapers
And so we… honestly things got really tough at that point
Finally, I said okay you know what if you serve me papers um I'll sign
I'll sign up just I'll meet you in court because I don't think this marriage is really going anywhere
I just feel so blessed that he took this you know huge leadership role at that point and he
turned things around do you want to like tell yeah as i always say I don't know what happened
and I was so good at being defensive.
She had brought up so many of these concerns before,
but I don't know what was going on.
I literally was accusing her of not being grateful for all the sacrifices I'm making
for the family or the hard work I'm doing.
The worst thing is I had so many friends doing that like working,
so many shifts. So it felt like we were doing the right thing providing for our families.
So when I'm talking to my friends, we are just happy how we are great dads, how we are providing
for our families, how we are working hard, how other people are not as hardworking as us.
I did not know that my wife was lonely at home. I just didn't think, I just thought she wouldn't
and not put myself through that and split up my family.
So I was able to listen,
and the listening part was just start to realize like,
okay it's not just about me.
She is really crying here because she's going
through something that I don't understand
because I did not grow up learning about emotions
and being emotional, having connections and emotions.
for couples. And that just started giving us an opportunity to connect with other couples.
Really at that time we were just sitting there quietly, not talking a lot, not sharing as
much but it's just another opportunity to go somewhere too, to be around couples who are
having great marriages and then we started going to dead nights. That I believe has been
a big game changer. Yes. Yes. And someone might think, Oh no, it sounds like so easy
for you. Somebody told you, she's rightfully divorced and you switched just like that.
It wasn't like that right now it sounds like it but there was a lot of arguments. I remember those
days we'd go to date nights, we really dropped off the kids but we're just arguing back and forth
back and forth. And it's like the date night didn't even make sense at that time what we ended up doing
is it would go to Banzanobu, park outside Banzanobu, finish our argument going side Banzanobu
23:36How Jesus brings unity
and she was still praying for us.
because of that lack of connection or that lack of friendship that they might be missing in their relationship.
And so I think it just really helped us see what needed to be done, and we're just so thankful that, you know,
you know we were able to pray together and invite the Lord to be part of our marriage
because before that, we didn't even know that we could actually put Jesus at the center
of our marriage. I mean I had never heard of that before but thankfully through this whole process
of going to church and talking to all these couples, we were able to just get on the right track
and I think now having that perspective, it really helps. When we see a couple struggling,
we really want to help out. If you could, and I know this could be a huge question,
could have its own episode but what would you say in your experience now as coaching couples through
Live Your Best Marriage? What does it mean for couples to put Jesus at the center of their marriage?
When you're getting advice about marriage, it's always about what do you want? What are your goals?
What's your mission? All these things which are basically based on you. So sometimes it feels like
there's a lot of ups and downs but there's no rock that you can look up to that is like bigger than
you that you can say okay I'm putting my eyes there this is what i'm gonna focus on and then
and my marriage will be based on that.
There are so many philosophies coming in and out
when you're looking for marriage advice,
but all of them, for me I believe
they just leave you so empty.
It has nothing bigger than either you or your kids.
So putting Jesus in the center, praying,
also knowing that, for example,
your children that you have right now,
it's not really your children.
you are basically a steward of God's children. When you put a different perspective of, okay,
these are God's children, this is what Jesus wants me to do it I guess I feel like it makes
it easier to do the right thing and also it makes it like it's not easy to constantly look at your
your spouse as the enemy because now she's not really the enemy because also there is also
the devil. Also, there's all these other things that are going on that we are not basically fighting
a battle of flesh but there's also spirit which is also part of this conversation but we might
not even be thinking about it because I'm just saying okay she just told me that but where is
that coming from? If people were to come and say hey we are listening to Pesa and Whitney
we're hearing our story in their story as well we'd love to get some coaching. Just walk us
through the process. What does it look like to say, hey, live your best marriage? Have you guys as our
coach? What would that look like? We believe that for a couple to be strong they need to
be on the same page. We are not saying they should not disagree. We are not saying that they
should be just like two robots who just everything is in sync. Yes but you're disagreeing in private
and then when you're talking to your kids, you have the same voice. When you're talking
to your in-laws, to your parents, you are all coming from the same perspective. It's the
same voice that they are hearing. So for example if it's their children we don't have a situation
28:19Resources for couples
where they go to mom, hey, Mom can I have that new doll? They know mom will say no but if
If they come to dad, he's like you know what? It's okay. Just get it.
Our kids try this with us.
Yep.
Yeah. It just happened is me and my daughter we just the youngest we just did every week
we do one called Daddy Daughter Day. So yeah so we just came from one and her mom has already
stayed right here. We don't want more stuffies in the house. Yes little plushie dolls. The
The rule is no more stuffies. But when we were out today, guess what she asked for?
One other stuffie. Obviously the answer is it has to be no because we already agreed that no more
because we already have enough right now. So once they take the United Front audit,
they're able to know where they're having issues, is it issues with their ground, with the in-laws,
finances, issues with parenting and then from that now we can start coaching so that we can
address those specific issues that came up from the audit. It's Christian based so
we also have scriptures that will go with that so it's like a devotional kind of coaching where
they're getting, we are working on the issue that they're bringing up and at the same time
these Bible verses that goes with that. Okay. So yes. Something that we've talked about before
is that being cross-cultural doesn't always mean that you grew up in different countries or on
different continents. Sometimes I think we forget that even if we grew up in the same city,
from a different place on a lot of issues.
And so I just wanted to put that out there
to our listeners too, even if you're not cross-cultural
or an interracial couple, this could be really helpful.
You're right, yes.
Yeah and just to say too,
I've actually had goat on a spit before
to rural Canada here.
So we are getting near the end of our interview
I wish I knew how to forgive quickly.
She's not my enemy.
LiveYourBestMarriage.com and also you'll take the free United Front quiz there
Thank you for Aaron and April, and their ministry, and all the work that they are doing to help couples all over the world
To be able to live these great marriages and not forget that the fact that when they started their marriage
They were not doing it so eventually they can get a divorce
They were doing so they could have a great marriage, raise great kids, and just things worked out great
So we pray for whoever is listening to this program today
To get lots of wisdom from it and be able to use it
to create a greater, better environment for their family, their kids and just their community
In Jesus' name we pray. Amen
Thank you for the privilege of journeying with you today as we seek God's best for our marriages
Before you go, if you've been blessed, challenged or inspired by what you heard today,
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praying the life, intimacy and connection of God's love over you and your marriage.
Credits and links
About this podcast appearance
The Living Marriages Podcast is hosted by April Au and Aaron Au. This page remains connected to the original public episode.
Learn more about Pesa Shayo, explore his books, or see more podcast appearances. Marriage resources are available from Live Your Best Marriage.