Podcast appearance
How Cross-Cultural Couples Can Build a United Front in Marriage
Benaiah Aro and Pesa Shayo explore how two cultures, two families, and two different sets of expectations can become one stronger marriage.
- Podcast
- THE MAKING OF ME
- Host
- Benaiah Aro
- Published
- Guest
- Pesa Shayo
Listen
THE MAKING OF ME
Episode overview
About this conversation
Pesa draws from his own cross-cultural marriage to explain how cultural clashes, loyalty conflicts, and communication assumptions can turn difference into division.
The conversation focuses on honoring both backgrounds, setting family boundaries, improving communication, and building a shared marriage culture in which neither spouse has to erase where they came from.
Key takeaways
Marriage principles discussed
- Unspoken cultural assumptions can create conflict even when both spouses mean well.
- Couples need a shared marriage culture rather than a contest between backgrounds.
- Family boundaries work best when spouses agree privately before speaking publicly.
- Curiosity and listening help partners understand the meaning behind a tradition.
- A United Front turns cultural difference into a source of strength.
Chapters
Conversation chapters
Full transcript
THE MAKING OF ME transcript
Transcript note: Published with permission and formatted for readability. This transcript was automatically generated from the original public recording or caption track. Speaker names are omitted where the source did not identify them, and minor transcription errors may remain.
00:00Introduction and Cross-Cultural Marriage
Welcome to the making of me podcasts.
We will explore the defining moment that shape extraordinary people into who they have become.
Othelages is best as shall you, author and co-founder of Live Your Best Marriage out.
Pesa's work helping cross-cultural Christian couples build a United Front isn't just professional. It is personal.
It's shaped directly by his own cross-cultural marriage with Whitney.
And now by laying in first hand how outside pressure, in-law tensions, and loyalty conflicts can quietly divide it
in a strong, loving home. That personal experience became the foundation for your mission, helping
couples stop turning against each other and start facing pressure as wanted.
Truly pleasure to honor how you at the show. Thank you very much. Thank you very much Benaiah.
I am really thankful for being here and you taking your time to actually help me with getting my message
out there. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you so much person. So first of all before leave
your best marriage out who were you as a young husband?
to navigate in cross-cultural marriage with Whitney.
So, with me originally from Kenya in Africa and my wife, Whitney is an American.
But we met here in America.
And at first it was just we got married.
Everything was great, no problems.
But the issue started happening was without knowing I believe that as long as a man provides for their family,
you have done all what you need to do.
So I was raised in a place where
I saw every day, man leave the house
in the morning, go out, find, make money
and make sure that their family is taking care of.
And all this was done in such a way
that they knew as long as the family
has been taken care of financially
The bills have been paid
That they're done
Now they can just rest
And be okay with it
So that was just what was built
In my mind
I saw that happen going on
As a kid
and I just internalized that.
So in my own marriage, I was just doing that.
So at that time we were newly married.
At that time, we had two kids
and I was working six nights a week.
So six nights a week coming home in the morning,
sleeping in the afternoon,
go back to work,
work 2 to 10 p.m.,
and then go to another job,
walk 11, 11 p.m.
to 7 come home.
So it was just like
I was really never home
but I was so proud of myself
because I believed
My work proved my love.
And also I had so many friends from where I came from who were doing the same thing.
So it was just like we're encouraging each other and we really believed we are great husbands.
But the problem was at that time, my wife was experiencing something different.
So for her she did not, yes, she's thankful and she was grateful.
But in her mind, and she comes from a place where she also needed emotional connection,
somebody who's going to be a partner with her, talking, just going through life together.
And without knowing I wasn't providing that or go, yes.
So we think we are doing the same thing.
We think we're on the same page, but we're on two different planets.
And she really felt alone and she felt like she was taking care of all the responsibilities in the home.
And after the birth, after our third baby was born, she was ready to leave.
So at that time, she's like, give me the papers.
I'm going to sign, I'm ready to get out of here.
And this was very crazy because I had no affair, there was no scandal, nothing.
03:30The Wake-Up Call and Emotional Support
It's just my marriage has disconnected.
It was disconnected without even me knowing it was you are doing the right thing
but you're actually getting the wrong result.
Yes, you're doing the right thing, but you're getting the wrong result.
But at that moment, thank God I was able to pause,
I think because God just was talking to me
because I was able to pause and listen to her
and just know that I will have to change.
Like, really?
I'll have to change.
And this is not saying you should not be providing,
but at the same time there's this thing called emotional support
and being there for your wife
that will have also to be added
to my responsibilities.
Yeah, yeah, this is really amazing.
The definition of more like what it means
to, yeah, being a man when it comes to your culture
is more of, yeah, just being the provider
to the emotional part.
In fact, the moment you provide she already a good man compared to other than this particular kind of culture
need the emotional support, a whole lot of back and forth.
It really all the time.
Just share your story just speak a whole lot of volume.
Yeah.
So loyalty conflict out feeling caught between his poor and family and the family of origin can some be
some of the hardest tension in marriage?
Yes.
Was there a specific moment where you or whiteish are fair?
the problem most accurately.
You know, you see, loyalty to my family of origin was seen as when I was growing up,
it felt like you see we are helping each other all the time.
We're just always helping each other.
Somebody needs money, you give them money.
They have problems, you go and help them.
So there was that constant helping each other.
So when I'm in my own marriage, I did not even know that I had more loyalty
to my family of origin.
And what I mean is when I get a phone call from…
maybe an uncle or a cousin, hey, I need some help.
At that time don't even think in terms of we need to discuss as a united front with my wife
and figure out do we even have the money to send?
I just think, okay, I have the money.
Yeah.
It's in the bank account.
I'm just going to send, right?
And then later on, I'm saying, Hey, you know what?
I sent some money.
And at that time she's like, hold on because she's coming from a place where this is our
money and we need to talk about it.
It's not that she's going to say no, but she wants to know.
So it's not like every time the answer will be no.
The idea where she comes from is you are loyal to your family of the new family
that you're creating and need to discuss with your spouse first
before you are making these big decisions which would end up affecting her
because she might be going without groceries or going without…
electricity because you did not think about it and you sent money.
And when you send money, the family member who you took,
you sent money, they never paid you back.
So you guys are going without but that's what you're used to.
So something like that was very interesting because until I had to pause
and look, okay, hold on.
First we need to pause.
Let me talk to my spouse here first.
And then we are not saying no.
We are just saying, I'll get back with you.
And there is no, there's no automatic.
constantly saying yes before you have discussed with your spouse.
That was a big change from, and it was painful,
it was very hard because saying no was seen as you are abandoning your family.
So true.
Yes.
That's really old though, especially when we just make reference up.
Imagine more like honorary of harmony culture, we speak volumes.
If anyone need help at time or all you also do is just to respond without having
to discuss with any person.
And now you have…
having to kind of unlearn that and start more like a learning the father, oh, which we are team here.
I have to consider the other person's perception towards it or that you're going to be in agreement.
07:30Family Requests and Loyalty Conflicts
And I think during this too, there's going to be conflict between that of our family back at home
and you hear when they get to see anything, they're making their request.
You're like, wait a minute, let me just discuss my partner.
How are you able to resolve this conflict?
Yes.
Between them rather than that is a hard one.
because every time you say that they are starting to think
that you are less, they are starting to take you less than.
But at the end of the day, you have to be okay being looked down
because at the end of the day most of the time
when things start going bad like in your own family
like that the one you are creating,
you will have to deal with those problems by yourself.
Yes and that is something that you have to accept
that, yes, they will look down upon you.
But you have to remember my first loyalty is what I'm building.
It's respecting where I came from.
I really respect them and I'm working to help them.
But I will also take responsibility of the thing I'm building here too.
Amazing.
And just big volume to the fact that as much as your honed on their decisions
were just under your immediate family fest
and owing to the fact that at the end of the day when things go wrong,
everyone went before themselves.
and I have to face your team, right.
Face you more like your significant order at resolving from the head start
it's really key to us of stealing the button.
It's really amazing.
So what communication mistake did you and why didn't make early around
that make your own culture class worse before you learn?
A bitter way through them.
You know one of the communication mistakes we made
and it took me a long time to understand this is
so she I assumed where I come from
We allow, we are always talking, happy, talking.
Yeah.
It's just if you're not direct into saying what you want, people will not even think
you need it.
Now she comes from a place where they are quiet, they are calm and they sometimes
not say things directly.
So for me, I would just basically take over the conversation without thinking that
she also has a point to say because I just come from a problem.
place where if you really want to say it, you'll just say.
Yes, say it.
And yeah, it's just said.
So if you go towards being raised, there's so many people are talking at the same time
and we feel like that's okay.
But where she's coming from it, the voices are low and they might not say things directly
but they really mean, they might not clearly say this is what I want,
but that's what they want.
So their communication style is different.
So I had to start accepting that just because somebody
is not talking loudly, does not mean they don't have anything to say. And also accept that there are different ways
of communicating. Yeah. And for the longest time I just thought we can just constantly just be
talking happy, talking loud and but that's not the only way to have a conversation.
Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. This really whole lot happens to kind of an end before that from your own court or
people win the one thing. They actually make it loudly and make it note compared to hear. The only
drop signals and expect you to actually more like come up with the full interpretation.
Really, they're a lot of that's more like repetitive about it or more like so definite.
It's not very clear.
And you have to start picking up, okay, she's doing like this.
Maybe maybe she's upset.
Maybe I need to ask is everything OK while if it was where I came from?
Also another thing is before I forget disagreement.
Where I was raised, disagreement was seen as a normal thing.
So just because we are arguing does not mean we are enemies.
So people can argue and the next minute they're just happy laughing.
But where she comes from, they are trying to always avoid disagreement.
11:30Disagreement, Faith, and Honoring Parents
So in a way, they view disagreement as a very bad thing.
So in a way, they were just, oh, okay,
I don't want to make somebody upset.
But I did not think that was a problem if somebody's upset
because I'm just saying my point and then we will understand each other.
So yeah, yes.
Amazing.
And how did your Christian faith specifically shape the way you had widened your land to set boundary with family without feeling like you were dishonoring?
Yes.
So because of my Christian faith, I knew exact, I started knowing that I'm putting my loyalty first God
and then my family that I'm creating because we are taught in the Bible to live and cleave
So we are leaving our family of origin and starting a new one.
But at the same time, the Bible will also tell us to honor our parents.
Yeah.
So we are not dishonoring our parent.
We have created a new family here because we left and we create a new family.
But at the same time, we are still supposed to honor our parents.
So because of that, my faith helps me that I should not just be constant disresbying
respecting where I came from because I'm saying, oh now I'm a Christian and I was told to live
and cleave. You don't need to tell me anything. No, yes, we can talk and have this great conversation
with you but eventually I need to remember that the final decision will be made by
me and my wife because we have created a new family here. That is a very small, it's a very big
new ones because yes, I'm honoring and I'm not disrespecting my parents, but the
final decision will always be made by me and my wife.
Yeah, amazing, amazing.
And also turning your own marriage struggles out into a public ministry
and business means being vulnerable about what didn't work at first.
What made you decide it was?
Thank you.
Thank you very much for answer to ask me that question.
Actually, I wasn't willing to share this information
and I felt like it's too personal.
And especially where I come from,
I feel like, okay, you cannot just be a man talking
these personal things. But as I'm getting older,
I remember all my friends that we used to work together. We used to go to jobs
together and work together. And we used to believe 100%
that everything we were doing was correct.
And the more I saw like a lot of us who are going through divorces
and just fights with their wives, it's you start realizing like,
okay, it's not that they don't want to keep their marriage.
It's they just have the wrong.
information. And if I can just help a few of these guys, this people who are great
people, hardworking, really trying to be there for their family, they are not breaking the law,
they're not doing bad things. It's just like they just are working with the wrong
information. If I can help them and let them see that, hey, you know what? Yes, you can keep
working. Yes, you can do all these things. But if you are missing all these other things,
be emotionally there for your family, seeing her point of view.
helping her feel like connected to you, having that loyalty to your new family
that you're creating, not your family of origin.
Things like this, it's going to make you a life much easier.
Easier, yeah.
Yes.
So you are basically getting new information to help you with your marriage.
Yeah, amazing.
I think it really lovely, especially when you may reference up the father.
They are willing to keep their marriage, but they don't just know enough
to afford it too differently towards on her and if such kind of voice
where you are doing, it's not a reason.
They won't know and there will be whole lot of issue on and on and all.
Keep going.
And thank you so much for the more what you're doing.
And just to add to that is a lot of information that is out there.
A lot of information, it's not about different cultures.
It's information about just they make their assumption
15:30Hidden Cultural Assumptions
that everybody comes from the same culture.
So all your problems are just communication.
Yeah.
Your problems are just the regular problems.
But when you're coming from two different cultures,
I'm telling you, brother, it's different.
Like for example, like,
I came from a place where naming…
When you are naming a kid,
a kid is named after my grandparents
and then my parents
and then my auntie.
So that's… We have a way of naming kids.
Yeah.
That's good until…
And you think that's how it's always done
until you find that somebody else
my wife is thinking,
hold on.
I gave birth to this child
I have to name this child
because I went through the pregnancy
I need to name my daughter.
So now it becomes a problem because all her in-laws,
all my family is expecting there's a new baby,
then they are going to name the baby.
Yeah.
And we already know who's going to be named.
If it's a boy, we know it's my grandparent.
If it's a girl, it's my grandma.
But all of a sudden, hold on, she's like, hold on, this is my baby.
How can you just come here and name my baby?
So that sounds funny right now, but at that time we have to
come up with a plan where we honor her point while we are also honoring our side of the story, because
we also want to have the baby named after with our culture. So what the compromise me and Whitney came
up with was she picks the first name and then I picked the second and then the family name is the last
name. So we have that so the kids know that they're part of two different cultures. While at
the same time the mom feels like she's also honored, her culture is being honored. And
me and my people feel like our culture is also being honored.
Yeah, amazing. Amazing. This is really lovely. And the fact that
happy to come in times for time towards making things work other than
the other way are. So looking back at the young horseman first navigating loyalty
conflict and a culturality friend, looking back at yet your younger suffer,
what will you want him to know about the author, the co-founder he would eventually become?
You know, what I'll tell him, thank you for asking because that's a very important
question. I would tell him to be, it's okay to apologize? It's OK to apologize and I also
tell him that don't always be defensive. And when I mean defensive means if somebody says you did
something wrong, don't always start looking thinking, okay, you are telling me I did
something wrong but you did something wrong too. So you're always your brain is
thinking how can I come back with a defense? Yes, you did something wrong.
accept it. It's not a war, to accept and then figure out how to move forward.
It's not everything that is being told that you did wrong means you are in a fight.
Yeah, yeah, okay to apologize.
Yes, yes.
And also don't be defensive, yeah.
Yes, and to add to that is where I was raised, apologizing would be seen as your weak.
If you're just showing up and you're like, oh, I'm so sorry.
Now, you are basically telling other men or…
other guys that you're weak.
So they will take advantage and so you are always trying to figure out how
you don't apologize and you are always blaming the other person, but not here.
You've got to change that.
Yeah, amazing.
So what does it actually means for a couple to build a united front in their marriage?
Okay.
So to build an United Front, what we are really saying is that we are on the same side.
So remember when you are getting married, you were getting married to your friend.
People don't get married so that they can get divorced.
They are getting married so that they can stay together.
And when they're getting married,
they are thinking this is my best friend
and I've made the decision to get married to this person.
So remember as a United Frontis, we are friends.
We are…
That does not mean we don't argue or we don't disagree.
19:30Spouses as Friends and Teammates
But because if you are disagreeing with your friend,
if you're disagreeing your friend,
it's different from when you're disagreeing with your enemy.
If you're disagreeing with your friend,
you're saying,
You know what?
You can say, okay, hold on.
Let me listen to what my friend is saying
because I really don't think
my friend really means it that way.
But if you are disagreeing with your enemy,
you are ready for the fight.
So we remind United Front
means you guys are friends.
You are on the same team.
You are on the same side.
And even if you are disagreeing,
remember,
you always can find a solution
to problems
and don't allow other people
relatives, work, money,
culture,
outside pressure, jobs, all these to come in and tear you apart.
You have a money problem?
Say remind each other we are friends.
We're going to, we are team.
We're going to deal with this money problem.
There's a money problem and then we are team.
We're going to deal with it.
You know, we are having problems with my boss at my job.
Okay, fine.
We as a team, we're going to figure out the best way to move forward.
We can't pay rent.
OK, it's not because you're lazy.
Let's figure out a best way to move forward.
Not, you know, all of a sudden people talk about.
turn against each other. Now they're fighting each other constantly, and it's like, okay, are these friends or enemies in one house?
Yeah. So true. It's so true. You guys are friends. And yeah, say things from the French perspective that, yeah,
both meet good, but there might be a misunderstanding that you may have to understand
the best point of view and being able to, yeah, address it amicably other than allowing people
to come in between. Yeah. Amazing.
And also, what can couple set boundaries are with parents or in-laws
without feeling like they're dishonoring or disrespect.
You know, thank you for asking that.
I always say when it comes to even before we get to the boundaries,
I always say if somebody is complaining about the in-laws,
the in-laws are always deciding in our family, the in-laws,
I'll say, you know, all what you're saying is that is a symptom of a problem.
It's not a problem.
is the symptom. The problem is, you and your wife or you and your husband are not united because if
the in-law asks hey let's say they're saying we need you to send this kid one of your kids
to this school that's for example maybe your father-in-law says I went to this school I want my
grandson to go to this school and you don't even talk to your wife you just send a key
to that school that means you and your wife are not united so before
He might say, you know what?
I went to this school.
I know the headmaster.
I want my grandson to be taken to this school.
Yes, but let me…
Because maybe the wife or maybe you also have a different plan.
Maybe that school is not where you think your son should go.
So have this conversation first before you say yes.
So when it comes to boundaries,
you first will work on being united front,
being united with your spouse,
with your wife first and then setting boundaries become so easy.
easy because you can just say, thank you dad or thank you father-in-law.
I respect that but we'll have to make decisions first and also before
another thing that I've seen here that when it comes to boundaries some people already take
let's for example you take a lot of money from your in-laws okay so your in-laws helped
you buy a house your in-laws helped you do so many things
and now because they are constantly taking from them now they feel like
They can tell you what to do.
And then now you are like, hold on, I want to set a boundary.
I will say, hold on.
First, there are two types of boundaries.
You need to also realize that if they're giving you constantly
you are accepting their financial help,
they help buy your house and now you are upset
that they are saying that you need to paint your house.
Yeah.
Or they're saying you need to paint your house with color
but they paid 50%
And they paid, they help you get the house.
See, there's a problem.
So when you are setting boundaries also remember that if you're always taking from them,
they feel like they have a say in your family, right?
If they're paying school fees for your kid for the last two years
and now they're saying this kid need to continue going to this school
and then you're like, oh, hold on, I need them to go to this other school.
24:00Financial Dependence, Boundaries, and Connection
Hold on, they're like, your father-in-law is saying, hey,
I've been paying for this key.
I've been paying for my grandson to go to this school.
So it's very important to realize when you create a new family,
also be the man and provide…
We are not saying don't get help,
but remember,
when you're setting boundaries,
it's hard to set boundaries
when you're already constantly depending on these people financially.
Yeah, difficult to set boundary
where you're depending on them financially.
And even if you have to set boundary
when you're depending on them,
you have to have both consideration
or look deeply so that you know
day, everything is going to come balance without being hot. Yeah, this is amazing. Yes, that's very important and
going back to the United Front always be united so that means the wife or the husband
is not going and taking loans on the side from the family members and then it's like okay they're
taking loans so now this is they are taking loans because she's going or he's going and saying you know
what we don't have money whatever now you're taking loans and then now when they are saying do this for us
we have been giving you money, it becomes very hard to say no.
Yeah, so true, so true.
So lastly, what is one practical step?
A couple can take this week to stop fighting each other and start facing outside pressure as it's in.
Yes, you need to remember that you are friends, but I would say with your phone,
when you're talking to your wife, don't be scrolling,
when she's coming and saying, hey, I had a long day at work,
And she's trying to tell you what happened.
Please put the phone down, like turn off the TV or put the phone down so that she…
Because what we are trying to do is bring some connection here.
And it's so easy to feel disconnected to this to your wife or your husband because they're always on the phone.
So especially when they feel like they really need to talk to you about something very, very important.
Like maybe at their job, they were having an argument with maybe their boss,
something very important. To them it's important to you is maybe like, oh my God, another one of those. Put the phone down, listen even if you feel like
you don't have to because you are building on that connection. That's one of the easiest things
you can do tonight. Yeah, listen. Listen. Listen. Listen. And get to listen. Yeah. Thank you so much and don't be
defensive. Yeah. Laces, don't be defensive. And it's okay to apologize.
Yeah.
Yes, amazing.
So from all these who love to reach out and yeah for your books
or to connect with each other coaching
or to follow your various platform,
how can they reach out and where is the best platform?
So they can always reach out.
They can come to liveyourbestmarriage.com
which is L-I-V-L-Iv Your Best Marriage.com
And if they're on Instagram, we are very active there on Instagram
so they can go to follow us at liveyourbestmarriage.com
Again, L-I-V-E, You Are Best Marriage.
And on Instagram, we send memes several times a day.
So they'll get a lot of encouragement daily to just help them with their marriage
and also be around people who are working on their marriage.
Yeah, amazing.
Thank you so much, Pesa.
Thank you for showing us that even in marriage generally rotated in love
can be tested by pressure.
That partner, pressure or need our partners created
and that the real work is learning to face those pressures together rather than
turning on each other. Yeah, from your own cross-cultural marriage with a witness to the couple you now
have built their own united for them. My audience would love to reach out and explore more on this. Check
the show notes and see the link uh to actually is literally richard. You are not approved that
unity isn't just the absent of our type bridge it is a decision we meet
it as one thing once they get a pleasure honor I have yours too please thank you very bena
i really enjoyed being here
Credits and links
About this podcast appearance
THE MAKING OF ME is hosted by Benaiah Aro. This page remains connected to the original public episode.
Learn more about Pesa Shayo, explore his books, or see more podcast appearances. Marriage resources are available from Live Your Best Marriage.