Podcast appearance
How to Navigate a Cross Cultural Ethnically Diverse Marriage
Kevin and Amanda Wood talk with Pesa and Whitney Shayo about family boundaries, communal and individualist expectations, repair, and honoring both cultures.
- Podcast
- The Marriage Partnership: Christian Marriage
- Host
- Kevin Wood and Amanda Wood
- Published
- Guest
- Pesa Shayo
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The Marriage Partnership: Christian Marriage
Episode overview
About this conversation
Kevin and Amanda Wood talk with Pesa and Whitney Shayo about family boundaries, communal and individualist expectations, repair, and honoring both cultures.
The conversation covers african communal and american individualist expectations, family access and marriage boundaries, protecting marriage while honoring parents, repair after a cultural misfire, culture issues versus character issues, premarital agreements for diverse couples.
Key takeaways
Marriage principles discussed
- African communal and American individualist expectations.
- Family access and marriage boundaries.
- Protecting marriage while honoring parents.
- Repair after a cultural misfire.
- Culture issues versus character issues.
- Premarital agreements for diverse couples.
Chapters
Conversation chapters
Full transcript
The Marriage Partnership: Christian Marriage transcript
Transcript note: Published with permission and formatted for readability. This transcript was automatically generated from the original public recording or caption track. Speaker names are omitted where the source did not identify them, and minor transcription errors may remain.
00:00Introduction and guest background
What do you do when you fall in love and marry someone from a different culture or ethnic background?
You share your faith, but your family background and way of doing things is so different.
We're going to find out more in this episode today.
Welcome to the Marriage Partnership Podcast.
This is where we talk about marital themes from a Christian biblical perspective.
Our passion is to help your marriage flourish, whether you've been married a few months or many years.
We'll have interesting tips and practical suggestions
And sometimes we'll have special guests from across the nations.
Well welcome to another episode of The Marriage Partnership Show!
We're delighted to have as our special guest today, Pesa and Whitney Shayo,
marriage coaches from San Antonio, Texas who have a coaching business called liveyourbestmarriage.com.
Hello and welcome. Thank you. Thank you we are welcome. Thank you for having us. So tell us
a little bit about yourselves, how long have you been married? Have you got children
and where you first met.
Okay, so I'm Pesa and thank you for having us.
And I'm originally from Kenya in Africa
and my wife Whitney, she grew up in Kansas
in the United States and we have been married for about 20 years
and we have four daughters.
So where did you both meet?
Well, I grew up in Kansas here in the States
and Pesa was attending nursing school in the same town where I'm from
And when he graduated, he started working as a nurse at the same place where I was working
And so we just hit it off really well and the rest is history
Can you say any more to that Pesa? What was it like for you? How you first set your eyes on Whitney?
So I just, she was working and I guess we started talking. She was always very bubbly and happy to see me.
I'm very happy to see me and I guess one thing led to another. We exchanged numbers and we started calling each other but it's just the happiness that she always had every time she saw me and also she said my name right so that means something.
Very important.
Yes, it's a big deal.
It was a big deal.
Oh, that's lovely.
Yeah.
What we do at Live Your Best Marriage is we help Christian couples, especially couples
from different cultures become united front when, especially when marriage expectations,
loyalty to in-laws and their family of origin and just boundaries start pulling them apart.
We have always loved each other very much, but we've had some very unique challenges over the
years.
In the beginning, we used to make a lot of different assumptions about each other.
We had different expectations as to what life was supposed to be like and we had different
Different ideas of work, different ideas of communication, different ideas of how involved
our extended families should be in our household. And so that has created a lot of tension over
the years.
Yes. I mean it's difficult for couples generally. It has a lot of those things to consider when
they come together. We all come from different backgrounds and family upbringings and everything
but you've got that added cultural difference that could actually be a big stumbling block,
an extra stumbling block actually that most couples don't have to deal with.
I want to bring in a scripture here from the very beginning, from Genesis 2-24, it says
this explains why man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife and the two
to a United Into One. And, you know, we want to know what did leaving and cleaving require of you
that the same culture couple might never have to consider?
For us, leaving, do you understand?
Yes, in our case I was expecting more of the leaving and cleaving.
whereas in his culture the extended family continues to play a big role in just in life.
Yes, yeah.
And we found out that when it came to living and cleaving
We could not just rely on expectations or assumed assumptions that everything, especially when it came to holidays, money, relatives, parenting, how to name a kid.
All these things we had to be more intentional and discuss them because we did not come with the same assumptions on how things have to be done.
We actually had, we ended up creating our own new culture because yes, we lived and cleaved
and created a new culture cause we could not continue. We didn't have a united culture from
We've started our a lot of new traditions
Yes, yeah, yes
Yes, so you've had to sort of build a third culture if you like as a couple
And how did you emotionally process this leaving behind a cultural identity?
How did you deal with that emotionally together?
Well I would say bringing the two cultures together for the most part we had to realize
06:43African communal and American individualist expectations
I think slowly by slowly that it's okay just to be us.
It's okay to just be ourselves.
We didn't have to really change our whole identity just to fit together
and there are so many different examples of that.
You know, we embraced a lot of
Different things like you were able to embrace like different types of food
Yeah, yes, you know food that he grew up with and then you know
Recipes that I grew up with and we've been able to bring a lot of those
Quite exciting and interesting for the children. I'm sure
Yes, just like for example here in America we celebrate Thanksgiving and in Thanksgiving
when I grew up we didn't have the Thanksgiving holiday.
And so not only that, here in America there's special food for thanksgiving like turkey, mashed
potatoes, cranberry sauce and things like that. But what we ended up doing is creating our own
Thanksgiving with our own types of food. Like sometimes we go and do Indian takeout for Biryani
so which is basically our own little take on Thanksgiving. So we end up… So our kids have…
they view it differently because we ended up creating our own way to celebrate Thanksgiving day.
Yes, yeah. I think that's lovely really don't you?
I'm guessing there were differences from your family of origin so what does biblical loyalty
to a spouse look like when it costs you approval from your family?
It means it's just basically understanding that I need to protect my marriage first instead
Instead of trying to please friends, family who might not have my marriage best interest
in their mind when they are making the decision.
Because sometimes they may criticize me, criticize my wife or want us to do things but they're
not looking at the whole picture on our marriage, they are just looking at where they came from
and what was handed down to them from our forefathers.
So I need to realize that biblical loyalty
to my spouse needs to come first than my extended family.
Yes, yes.
And this is not about hostility to my parents
or hostility to my aunts and cousins and uncles,
is just making sure that there's an order and my marriage is placed first, so it's God
and then my wife. My marriage is placed second under God and my extended family comes fourth
below my children. Yes, wonderful. And so we are not rejecting them and this is like the hardest part
because being raised in a family where you have to respect and obey your parents at all times.
So what I'm saying is we are not rejecting our parents when we say we are cleaving,
we are living and cleaving or we're just reordering the loyalty
and we are listening to them but we are not rejecting them.
and I think that's sort of sums up your situation. We're not talking just physical location, we're talking about, I think here being on the same page and understanding in a relationship, you're together in that way.
I think being on the same page and understanding in a relationship, you're together in that way.
Yes, and doing the loyalties isn't it?
So what would you tell a couple that's currently facing this same cost they're going to have to deal with?
Well, I really like the point he just made that you can be respectful to your parents at
the same time as making your marriage a priority.
And I would just let them know that it's definitely their spouse does come first but let's not
It's showing, it's a symptom that you in your marriage are not united
because both of you would before you make any major decision like money with your family, children, decisions, holidays
You come and talk first and decide so that when you go and talk to your mum or you go and talk to your cousin
We have decided that we are not coming this year
Yes, you come as a united front don't you?
You own a new gravity of…
A new circle of family if you like
Yes, central gravity
That's the one I wanted
And the parents should have respected that and recognised that from the beginning really
You have to establish that each time don't you
and as I say, if you come together, you're honoring them in that way anyway aren't you?
13:26Family access and marriage boundaries
You're sort of saying well we're together but we recognize what you're saying.
It's the way you push it across as well isn't it?
Yes.
No that sounds lovely. Yeah.
So when you first married where did you feel family boundaries were the most unclear or contested?
I would have to say that there probably was not just one big dramatic event, but it was
that we had such different assumptions about how things should be and who should have access
You should know our parents, who could help us make decisions, or if those were your kids.
But one of the hardest things we did go through was naming our kids.
And in Pesa's culture, the tradition is to name the baby after a grandparent or an auntie
or an uncle or just whoever is next in line.
Yes.
In that tradition and my point of view was completely different.
I wanted more parental authority.
I thought, you know what? If i'm gonna go through all this pain
I mean this… I'm going to go through all of this and then not even be able to name the kid
that was very very upsetting to me. And so thankfully we were able to work out a compromise
I picked the baby's first name which is English and then Pesa chose the middle
name, which is a Swahili name. Yes! And so we… So I still got what we wanted
which is to name our family name, a family member. Yes. So my grandma, my mom and just
down the line and then she still got what she wanted is to name her baby a
and name that she wanted. And right now, after many years, it's so simple to explain it but
at that time it was very heated because the assumptions that I was making and the assumptions
that she was making were totally different. So I just assumed that the baby will be named
after a relative like one of my relatives. It's a girl who start with my grandma if it's a boy
with my grandpa and then we just go down the line and then my grandpa, my mum.
But she didn't… that never even came up in her mind that she would be naming her grandma.
It's just a name that she chose because she believes it's her child.
I wanted to pick a name that I like.
Yeah, yeah. And I guess you know that sort of thing doesn't really come up in completely.
When you're dating you just say oh by the way,
I've got to ask the question, because it's just… do they actually like their names? That's the main thing. Your children? Are they happy with them?
Yes, they are happy. They are all aware of how unique their names are.
Oh, they're very special.
They are very special and we in fact tell our kids that
they are very blessed to have such a rich heritage.
They have very interesting backgrounds on both sides of the family
and so we like to encourage them and just remind them hey you have both.
you have this wonderful culture from dads and then you've also got ancestors
that are from mom to… we talk about just people that we admire in our families
and it's a lot of fun actually those conversations. And in both cultures every name has a meaning
and also the meaning, doesn't it? Yes. They do. So, presumably they know the meanings of their names.
Oh yes, so yeah, they know their meanings of their names and also one thing just to add to that was
with Whitney she was looking for that unique name but because for me on our end we name after
a relative, so when we go to a family get together there are so many kids like cousins who have the
name. Name, and so then that would be a huge turnoff to somebody who likes a name that is individual
but to us it feels like you belong because there are so many cousins who have you guys share the same
name. Yes yes yes yes it's different perspectives isn't there which is good and it's good to teach
the children about different perspectives and yeah that's wonderful absolutely. And was there
What was the boundary that took a long time to hold and set at all?
Probably advice.
Yes, advice from relatives knowing that, especially for me, knowing that all the advice I was getting,
especially every time I have a phone call with a relative they'll give me advice
and I had the tendency of just taking it and start implementing.
Whitney says you implement at the speed of instruction.
I'm told, and I started doing it.
The lesson here for me was that I can get advice, and this one for many years, but I need to
talk with Whitney first before we can make a decision.
Yes, yes, yes.
So it was just a suggestion.
How do it in laws from an African communal culture and an American individualistic culture differ in what they expect access to?
I mean, for example, did your family expect to have an influence over your money decisions, your parenting or what sort of categories of things, discussions caused the most friction?
20:09Protecting marriage while honoring parents
So I'll start with me for the African.
In my experience, because I was raised in a more communal family culture,
things about time, money, money problem, decision like that,
were always talked about constantly.
Like it felt like especially many people would ask each other for money all the time
and so giving each other money was seen as just a normal thing.
You have a problem, you ask me if I have money, I give you, I have a problem.
So it's just constant money moving around but helping your family was never seen as optional.
It had to happen. You could not say no to helping the family.
and I think that's really, so that expectation was there since you were a kid.
And I saw my parents doing it and I just knew that's what I'll be doing.
But I think in your experience…
On my side of the family as far as money goes, I think everyone was very private.
I think a lot of folks were just too proud to borrow money.
They didn't want to say that they were struggling and so they would just do whatever they could to take care of those issues on their own.
But I know it was definitely a lot more private than, you know, just…
That's interesting. So was there a boundary you had to renegotiate after realizing that your first attempt was either too rigid or too soft?
I think one of the biggest boundaries would be that we learned to start telling relatives, okay well I can take this into consideration but I'll go and talk to my spouse first
and then I can get back to you later on that. That's a big boundary that we've been setting.
And just before, as an example, let's say we go and visit mostly on my side, we'll go and visit and the issue of time,
We don't have like, we can say we'll be here for an hour but we'll be here for 10 hours.
Yes.
Just talking and happy and so that was an issue especially if the babies were tired and they were cranky and sleepy
at first we had to say okay we'll be here for two hours but two hours ended up being four
But so now eventually it has to be very straight. Okay, right. Two hours, Whitney's ready to live and win.
Right. So basically I need to leave too. Yeah. So you were maybe too soft and you had to be a bit more rigid?
Yes. Yeah. Yes. So that was a renegotiation. Yeah. No, I can get that. Yeah. Yeah.
Because there is that scripture in Exodus isn't there about honoring your father and your mother
but here you're protecting your marriage from the outside influence.
And how about yourself, Whitney? Would you say like another, you know, can you give an example from the American side where, you know, you had to renegotiate things that you wanted to have that his parents or his dad himself had to sort of accept that actually this is not acceptable.
I think one example that I can think of is the grandparents actually were pretty big on giving
the kids candy. And, I mean, I really was not happy about that but I think Pesa was actually
more concerned about it you know because they would become so hyper and then you know you have
and the same thing.
You have to worry about their teeth, all those things.
So that was definitely an example of when Pesa and I needed to sit down and have a conversation
and say okay hey let's tell them this together.
If I'm the only one who says it they probably won't really take it seriously but I think
If both of us handle it together, then it should go well.
And this happened after so many evenings where we'll go and pick up the kids from Whitney's mom
and they will be so hyper and she will talk to her but nothing changed
because there was a belief that grandparents have to spoil the kids,
which ended up being more work for us at night because it was impossible to get them to go to bed.
Yeah, that's good.
I've got to learn from this as well.
How did you discover that respect meant two different things in your marriage?
For me, respect meant listening to each other and taking both of our opinions into consideration.
but at times Pesa, you know he thought he was, I think he thought he was remaining calm and being respectful
while I actually thought he was avoiding the real issue or even stonewalling.
Yes, right.
That was tough.
We were arguing before, we are arguing because now I stopped talking.
And so now we just eventually had to stop arguing, like realizing that we can have a conversation
without assuming that the other person is like quote unquote stonewalling or refusing to talk
and we still…
That's a hard one to get rid of because sometimes I go back to that way of thinking like there's
26:53Repair after a cultural misfire
no use let me keep quiet.
That does not help you. No, no, that's right. We always try to remind our couples, you know,
you can't mind read each other, you just got to open up and speak, you know, your thought
process because we don't know what you're thinking. A little bit of body language maybe but it's
best just to speak it out and get it out in the open and then understand each other. You
actually find out, don't you? That you're actually thinking the same things anyway so…
No way!
Yeah, so it says handling silences actually. You know is it read as peace or was a problem?
I don't think you've already said that it was a problem. So are there any communication habits
that both of you have had to unlearn.
So for me, when in an argument I tend to keep quiet,
like not to say a lot but on a normal day
when we're having a regular conversation
I'm more likely to be the one talking
and so in my experience if somebody is very evasive
and I grew up thinking if somebody is evasive and less direct they are not directly telling me what
they're thinking on a regular conversation. I would feel like they're emotionally distant
while Whitney was the opposite she's more quiet. Yes, because growing up in my household
if someone was speaking direct it was seen as rude or insulting and so there have been many times when
you know Pesa is just talking to me normally but he's, you know, he's direct, he's honest
and I took it, I took offense to it. That's that was just how things were. Yeah yeah
and it's interesting when we go to a family reunion with my in-laws
and their style of communication is very indirect.
Basically, I feel like they are beating around the bush instead of just saying what's wrong
but that's how they communicate and they understand each other
very well and to me I'm like I missed out. I missed what they were saying because
I was expecting they would just come and tell me directly, this is the problem.
Yeah, so there's certainly some communication styles that differ between the Kenyan and American
upbringings that you had to deal with. Yes, yeah definitely. What wedding gender role or household
traditions did you see were universal on what weren't? Okay, especially when it comes… We
We were talking about this before we jumped on the podcast. When it comes to wedding where
I was raised, the man's family pays for the wedding and so it's the idea that you are getting
married to…you're getting married to this beautiful girl that you love so you're basically
showing that you have skin in the game so you pay for the wedding.
in America, it's opposite. So then the girl's family pays for the wedding and that has always
wrapped me the wrong way. It's no around me but I just can't understand the idea that my
father-in-law will pay for my wedding and I can't understand how my father-in-law will look
I'm showing him that I don't have skin in the game, I want a girl but I'm not proving to him that I can take care of her
I kind of understand now
That's lovely actually
That was very different for me
So you sort of had to swallow your pride really do you think?
Yeah, like so we for our marriage we ended up paying our way but I just that's a hard one.
We've been together all these years but I still can't.
I hear stories all the time of the girl's family paying and it just doesn't connect for me.
No, no.
Well I'm assuming you got married in the States did you?
Yes.
Okay.
OK, well it's going to be interesting. You've got daughters right? So when they decide to get back, you will have the opportunity to then be redeemed because then you can pay for your daughter's weddings.
Oh yes.
See, the Lord's got his way mounded hasn't he? Giving you daughters.
That's a hard one to accept. We'll see.
I don't know what it's like in both of your countries but in the UK whilst it used to be common for the
The love of the lady, you know, the father of the bride to pay. It's less so now.
The couple together pay for their own wedding. They don't expect either parents to do anything.
Because the cost has become so astronomically high.
The either don't get married at all, sadly, or they just do it themselves.
What about in terms of maybe household chores or gender roles? Were there any differences
there with what your expectations were and what you ended up deciding was right for you
as a couple? Which one did you have to fight for and which one did you have to let go of?
Well, in the beginning of our marriage I think we both agreed actually.
I was staying at home with the kids and I was doing the cooking
And he went out and worked
Actually it's interesting because even though we agreed
there were still a lot of things going on that we struggled with
One evening he brought home a goat that he had purchased and it wasn't…
He wanted me to cook that for dinner and it wasn't processed. I had never seen meat that hadn't been processed.
33:36Culture issues versus character issues
Meat that's got legs!
And so we're able to laugh about it now.
But I went ahead and I figured out how to cook it and I served dinner.
Wow, well done. Yes it's a nice time.
So there were some things that we were able to agree on and then yet there were a lot of others that we surprised each other I think.
Yeah, yeah on that day I came home with a big smile but she wasn't smiling.
A bit shock culture was it?
Yes.
Very surprised.
You couldn't believe this can even happen.
So are there some traditions you will pass on to your children from both your cultures, do you think?
Or ones you think that way maybe we won't just do that in that culture.
You taught them so you know.
So one thing my our kids are bilingual so they speak English and also they speak Swahili
for healing. So that is a great thing because I feel like when we go to family reunions and
they meet their cousins from Kenya, and they can be able to speak Swahili with them which
is very good because they are short. Oh my goodness you guys can speak. You're speaking
better than what we do because they were not expecting them to be able to speak Swahili.
That's a big one because there are some things it's hard to explain unless you know they are the language.
Some concepts are just better explained in different lines, it's hard to translate them.
Another thing that we're teaching?
Well, it's really interesting because we have created some of our own traditions as a couple.
One thing that we started is, we both became vegetarians.
And so that is something totally new that we are passing down to our kids because neither side of our family is interested in quitting meat.
That's just uniquely ours.
and so we do have a few things like that that, you know, we're really happy that it's just for us.
Yes, yes, that makes it special doesn't it? The two of you, yeah all the… all of you.
Yeah, so how do you protect your hearts? I'm thinking of the Proverbs 4-23,
keep your heart with all sorry above all else guard your heart for it affects everything you do.
So how do you protect your hearts from resentment when cultural misunderstandings repeat?
I think in the beginning that was a struggle for us because we would both get offended
if one of us said something unintentionally, of course, about the other's traditions or customs or something like that.
But over the years we were able to start giving each other the benefit of the doubt and just know,
Hey, this is my friend. Yep
And I think if couples are friends first
I mean
I think if you can have a strong friendship with one another you won't get offended as much
and so that's what has happened for us and
There sometimes that we've gone through an argument and Whitney will say Pesa
I'm your friend and sometimes I might even say Whitney, look I'm your friend
like we have to remind each other that like hey, we are friends here
like we can't take it to the next level because sometimes it's so easy
to forget that we are friends. We're not each others enemies.
Yeah and sometimes when you look back at it you're like what was a big deal anyway?
But at that moment, it felt like no you didn't, oh no way, I will have to have a comeback.
Yes, yes, yes.
So how do you tell the difference between perhaps a cultural difference and a character difference?
You know when you're sort of, you know, it'd be very easy to say oh that's because we're culturally different
and always put the blame on that, but maybe it's just a personality difference.
Oh!
That's a really good question.
I…
Um…
Do you have?
Yes.
I think if it's hurting your wife, if every time you do it, and it really hurts your wife,
and you are still…
And she's like please stop don't do that again whatever.
and you are constantly saying, you know what? That's how we do it in my culture. That's how
we do it in my country. No, that's how we do it. You're moving away from the culture to now
you are going ahead now, you are actually hurting your spouse because there are some things.
Yes, when we think about culture, we just realize is people's behavior which was passed down generation
after generation. And you can make some changes to suit the situation that you are in at that moment.
So if you're going to work at your job, you can change your culture to fit the job.
So the same way if you're home, yes it might be your culture but if it's constantly hurting
the people around you, putting so much burden on them, you can change that and if
You are constantly insisting that because it's your culture you can change. Now I think you're moving from
Korean poor culture to more of, you have a character problem. Yes you do. Yes that's right.
Your behaviour, dishonouring your spouse by your behaviour and your mental decision making is not right.
Yes, so I think it's black and white. No, it's my culture. You have to abide by it and take it or leave it. No.
Yeah. So to help the couples that might be listening there in a similar situation to yourselves, what would you say would be your process for repair particularly where you know it's a cultural misfire causing the hurt?
I think having a willingness to apologize fairly quickly and actually be sincere with the apology
40:19Premarital agreements for diverse couples
and really try their best not to do that thing anymore.
Yeah, yeah.
And I'll say for the man don't be defensive so if something is pointed out
Yes, something is pointed out. Don't be quick to find another issue she did and use it at this moment as a defense. Just listen and let her talk because you might get some new perspective on the situation. Yes.
Yeah, that's lovely. Thank you. And for an engaged couple that are cross-cultural,
what would be one sort of non-negotiable agreement to make before marriage? What would you recommend
that would be? Okay so I would advise them that they should make this non-negotiable which is
is they should not have no major decision in their marriage,
should be made with other people outside the marriage.
Both of them have to make the decision.
So when it comes to naming the kids money,
how to spend the money holidays,
why are we gonna spend holidays?
Where are we going to be living?
Do we live near our parents?
All these things can be very much influenced by both families
but remembering that the two of you need to make the decision first
I think that should be non-negotiable
You don't have to go through years of pain to find out
No, no, no, no, I agree
I agree. And what I would say is that, I would say hey as a couple or as husband and wife you get to have a private conversation first
and then after you make your decision together, then you can let extended family know what your answer is.
So I would say just know that also another thing I would say is agree in public but disagree in private.
Yes.
I think that's another bit of advice that probably wouldn't help us.
You know it's just fun to gain isn't it?
that is the United Front, absolutely. I was just thinking of a joyful difference
that you might have come across it's sense of humor do you have you found that your humor sometimes
is different and can you give an example? Yes he I think overall Pesa is more
and I'm like, okay, really? Do you have to do that right now? But I would say that overall, we're both very, I think we hit it off really well because we both like to laugh a lot.
and I'm thinking that must actually say, you know, love covers a multitude of sins.
I think humour covers a multitude of sins as well doesn't it?
And I think you can laugh at each other, can't you when you think,
oh you're sort of sharpens iron but I think if you can just laugh
and we've often found ourselves laughing in the middle of an argument
because we're saying, oh come on this is getting silly!
Yes!
and I like the humor because also sometimes we have our own little inside jokes that we can say some
keywords, and we start laughing. And other people will be like what are they doing? What's funny?
What's funny about it but with… Yes you've got your own private jokes and that's lovely isn't
Isn't it? That's great, I think it draws you closer together as well, I think.
Yeah. It does.
Oh, I'm happy to know that Pesa and Whitney have written a number of books
And their latest book is called 500 Plus Ways To Embrace, Blend and Celebrate Your Unique Differences
Of all the ways, is there one small everyday practice that has made the biggest difference in how you actually live it out?
I think the biggest difference is just don't take your wife, your spouse for granted.
Have some curiosity because you just stop assuming that the way things used to be
are the way things will continue to be. Ask questions. What does this mean to you?
Did you guys do this as kids? And you'll be surprised how some of these simple questions can bring out so much information from her
and it's amazing because just having a little curiosity, so you learn a lot from her
and just seeing how she lights up telling me about like maybe her third grade teacher
which I just never thought about but just because I asked, it brings up good memories and she
started telling me. Yeah, I think that's lovely, that really is lovely. Thank you very much,
that's great. Oh that's great. And there's a lovely scripture that says above all these things put on
love which binds everything together in perfect harmony. It's a lovely scripture to sort of
of clothes with, really isn't it? From Colossians chapter 3 verse 14.
So tell us if there's anyone listening to the show today and they'd like to get a hold of
A, your book or B, they want to get ahold of you to get some coaching from you. How do
they find your book and how did they find you? I would say one of the best places
This is to look for us would be at liveyourbestmarriage.com
and they can also connect with us on Instagram
Our account is liveyourbestmarriage there as well
And if you want the books, you can always find them on Amazon
And Apple
And Apple for our podcast
The book is available everywhere
Yeah we'll put the links in the show notes
Thank you. People can find it. Certainly gonna buy a copy anyway. Well, it's been a real delight
to have you on the show today and thank you so much. And for today it's goodbye but thanks again
for listening. We've been Kevin and Mandy, and you've been listening to Pesa and Whitney Shayo,
and yeah, till the next time. Okay.
Credits and links
About this podcast appearance
The Marriage Partnership: Christian Marriage is hosted by Kevin Wood and Amanda Wood. This page remains connected to the original public episode.
Learn more about Pesa Shayo, explore his books, or see more podcast appearances. Marriage resources are available from Live Your Best Marriage.