Love Meets Loyalty: Building a Marriage That Stands Together with Pesa Shayo

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Hi. Welcome back to the Mind Over Habit broadcast. Here we explore a conversation about habit, healing, human behavior, relationships, mindset, and personal growth. I am your host, Moses. Today, we are entering a space where love meets some of the most complicated forces in human relationships, family, culture, loyalty, faith, and expectations. Because when to get married, they are not necessarily leaving their previous words behind. They bring their families, traditions, experiences, beliefs, and expectations into marriage. And sometimes without realizing it, a couple can start asking a painful question.

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Whose side are you on? But what if marriage isn't supposed to be about choosing sides? What if the goal is to create a new thing? Our guest today has dedicated this work to helping couples understand exactly that. Pesachio is an author and co-founder of Life Live Your Best Marriage.

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He helps cross-cultural Christian couples navigate in-laws' pressure, loyalty conflict, cultural differences, and communication challenges while building a united front. So join me as I welcome Presa to the show. Presa, welcome to Mind Over Habit Podcast. Thank you very much, Moses. I am very happy to be here today.

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It's a pleasure to have you, Presa. So let's start somewhere deeper than the usual marriage conversation, Pesa. So when two people get married what exactly changes about the meaning of family? Wow, that is a very important question because when two people get married they at the at that moment they are saying that they are starting a new family. The two of them came together, the two became one and they started a new family but at the same time both of them are coming from from their families of origin.

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So, each one is coming from their families of origin. And it might be very hard to say, okay now you have started a new family, now you need to cut off your family of origin. You need to stop because it feels like you've stopped being part of that family, now you are starting a new family and it may be very scary.

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But at the same time, there is something we call loyalty transfer. You are transferring their loyalty and this is where things get really hard because you are transferring loyalty from your family of origin to this new family that you're building And for most people it never happens just like that.

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The loyalty is transferred slowly by slowly. That's why somebody will tell you, hey, you know blood is thicker than water. I need to stick with my family of origin because this new family that I'm building here, they might not view it as really their family but the problems happen especially with your family of origin, the problems happen when you're having trouble transferring the royalty and seeing that you're going to put more effort in this new marriage that you are building.

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That's where you get a lot of problems. Wow, so those marriage created new family or simply either another person to an existing family system? I feel like because you left and cleaved, you live and cleaved and cleaving is you are cutting and

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are not living. We are still going to be our family, we just added one person to the family. But that might bring a lot of problems because she…we're expecting her to cut her family off but we are not expecting the husband to do that and especially it becomes a problem when you are making decisions in the marriage because when you are making decisions if you If you are making decisions as a husband and wife, it's hard enough.

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But now if you bring your whole side of the family to decide where you're going to live or trying to decide where you're gonna take the kids to school or just how you're gonna run your house. If your whole side of the family is involved in that decision, she might also feel very Offended and she might want her side of the family to be involved in making that decision. So now you're having 50 people Deciding for two people it now becomes a big problem so person imagine a husband or wife saying I love mine

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I love you, but my parents come first So what that our statement creates such is why can that as statement create? Such a deep wound inside a marriage Yes, and that's where it just tells me if your parents come first that tells me that you are having trouble Transfiring loyalty from your family of origin to this new family. We are not saying that you cannot take care of your parents we are not saying that you cannot honor and Respect your parents We actually went what we teach here is saying yes

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You have your family you're putting loyalty to your new family, but at the same time there's a commandment that says honor and respect your parents. That's the fifth commandment in the Bible. So yes you still can help your family, your family of origin. You still can respect them, but we know your first priority is this new family that you are building. And this is a hard one because a lot of people will What you just said is how the conversation will be. Somebody will say, my family, my mom and dad

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comes fast or somebody would say, my mother comes first, my mom raised me and we went through so much I cannot put her second. We are not saying put her second, we're just saying the new family that you are building is fast but you can still love respect honor help your mother if that's what All right. So, is there a reissue of the parent or the meaning, the spouse or structural decision?

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I think I don't, unless the parent is out there opposing the new marriage, I really don't think the problem is the parent. I think the problem is the fact that husband and wife, number one, husband and wife are not on the same page. So we can blame the mother-in-law, but sometimes the issue is we are not on the same page.

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We also, I think, so husband and wife are not on the same page. People have not transferred loyalty from their family of origin to this new family that they're building and they don't understand how to make decisions as a couple because there are some decisions which need to be made as a couple.

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Let's say where are we going to live? Where the children will go to school? There is a lot of things, what type of food we'll be eating. Those we're making them as a couple. There are some decisions that we need to inform our family of origin but they are not making their decisions for us. For example let's say we are moving to a new city or we are and move to a new neighbourhood. We can inform them, say hey we are moving but we are not telling them to decide for us. But we have to be strong enough to make that decision

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to decide where we're going to live or which school the kids will be going to. And then there's another decision let's say we need to decide, let's say we are taking care of our parent and all the siblings are coming together to contribute every month to meds, medications for a parent.

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That one as much as I can make a decision to say this is how much I can afford we are having all these other family members having a meeting to decide on the issue I can only say this is is how much I can afford, but the decision is being made by the family.

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So knowing what kind of a decision this is can really help make it easy because now you are not going in if it's a decision between you and your wife, you're not going in and putting it on their subgroup and expect everybody on your side of the family to help you make it is something that you guys are trying to think about, like what couches to buy.

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Oh, if you're having an argument with them, with your wife, and as you're arguing with her, you're already putting it in the group. And now everybody in your family is chipping in, telling you how to handle the conversation. I don't think that will bring a lot of peace in the house.

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All right, so are talking about this argument and person, how can couples discuss loyalty without turning it into competition? Oh, Moses, you are asking very good questions. Yes, that is very important when you're thinking like, okay, there's loyalty, loyalty to my family, but now it's like a competition, like competition with we are competing who's more loyal to, are you talking about who's more loyal to the family or the family of origin?

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Okay, what measured, what does the reassurance look like when one spouse feels displeased?

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conversation. So reassurance is very important you are basically trying to tell your wife or tell your husband that hey I am on your side and sometimes we forget that and we start fighting against each other so reminding them that yes we might have had a conflict, yes we might have disagreed, yes we might have not agreed on what we needed to do but I need to reassure you that we are on the same team, this was a little problem but we need to continue working together because sometimes we forget that we're on the same team and now we start fighting against each other instead of remembering

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that we need to face each other remember when they're on the same team and then fight the problem. And the problem might be as something as small as trying to set a boundary with family or with friends, whatever you're trying to do but you are remembering you are doing it as a couple not As like you're not you're not fighting against each other instead of dealing with the real problem.

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Okay, uh, first of all, we have seen cases whereby some couples who are intelligent, lovely, And sometimes they become divided by problem that originally came from outside the marriage. Why does that happen? Looking at the eyes, their exposure, their intelligence, but they still get divided from something that is outside the marriage.

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Yes, they get divided because they forget that they are a team and that is so easy to do especially now that you can get a lot of information online and you can post something on the internet and get a lot of comments. And most of the comments that you'll be getting, see this is very important, for something to trend, for something to go viral, the way it's asked will always bring conflict.

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And also for the…for you to get a lot of comments, most like the time the comments will be telling you to split, to tell him what you really think. It's always going to be telling you things to break you guys apart. You're not gonna get comments that will be reminding you to work as a team.

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You won't get comments like that. So it's very important to know that although you are smart, Although you are very intelligent, if you forget that this is a team, this is my friend, this is the one I married, this is the one I wanted to spend time with.

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I wanted to spend my life with. If you forget that, it doesn't matter how smart you are, it doesn't matter how intelligent you are, it doesn't matter how educated you are. You are using all the energy, the intelligence, the education to work against each other, not to come up with ideas to fight the problem.

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And I think I always think from a lot of couples we work with, I believe like being quick to put this information on the internet, you get a lot of bad advice. Okay, first, what happens psychologically when couples stop seeing themselves as 18? Ah, I think if you start stop seeing yourself as a team,

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now you are single. You are basically acting like two single people in the house. So what happens, usually they start just worrying about, because in a marriage, there are activities that need to happen just to keep their marriage working. So, paying bills, taking the kids to school, cleaning, there's just all these activities that need to happen and then there is also the friendship, the intimacy, the love that also goes in the marriage so when they think, when they are just, they forget that as a team what they do is for most of

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for them, they start just becoming partners where they can just run the house. They know what to do to run the house. They will take care of that. They'll pay their bills. They will help make sure the kids go to school, pay the school fees. They do all these things but there's no love there because they forgot that they are friends and they forgot that they're a team.

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So they can do these things and they can call each other husband and wife but their love is gone Wow, so Percea you used to use the phrase United Front Yes What does being united actually require when two spouses strongly disagree? Yes, so and when we say United Front We do not mean that You will always agree Okay, we don't mean that you will always agree. What it just means that You will work together behind closed doors in because these decisions can be made in the home, in their marriage and both voices need to matter.

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Okay? Both voices need to matter. You are making these decisions in the marriage. You're not making them… you're not making them in the group. You're not making them outside. You're not… everybody doesn't need to know as you are going… As you are making these decisions. Behind closed doors, in the marriage, both voices matter.

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It's okay to disagree because you are trying to find the best way forward But all the time husband and wife need to face the problem together instead of each other becoming the problem We are not fighting each other, we are literally facing the problem Now, one thing we have found out that kids are able to know when mom and dad, father and mother are not on the same page. Kids know that. And what they do sometimes, it might be funny but what they sometimes they do, and it used to happen a lot in my house, they know

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I will say no. Okay? So what they do is always they go to their mother and ask. The same Same thing, the mother will say yes. If they ask me I'll say no. They knew without even being taught that we were not on the same page. Obviously now we are working and taking care of that issue but for kids it might be funny. But when it comes to outside pressure if you're not on the same page, if each one has their own idea like one is saying yes to sending money, the

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The other one is so upset about money being sent and this could have been already handled in the family before everything is out in the air, like outside So, professor how can disagreement exist without destroying partnership? Oh yes, that is um disagreement should not be seen as a problem because remember both people are different and we see things differently.

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So I used to have this problem a lot in my marriage. I would think that disagreement meant we have a problem, but actually the older I became and longer we've been married I realized that she sees something differently. The way she was raised, maybe she has new information which I don't have.

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and the same thing about being curious. Maybe she has more experience in the area and she just might bring a new idea while me, maybe I don't even have a lot of information in that area. We might be talking about the same things but I don't have the most up-to-date information.

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So yes we are disagreeing and I think the most important thing here is being curious. I'm curious, where is she coming from? Where is she coming from? And also being willing to listen to their side of the story. So I'm expecting her to listen to my side of the story.

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I should also listen to her side of the story. And then we can find the best way to move forward. Sometimes we can find out maybe my idea is the best or sometimes we can find that we can have both ideas and actually it works out that way. But disagreement should not mean that there's a problem.

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It just means that there is some issue we just need to work on.

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All right, so let's talk about coach or person. What happens when one spouse idea of respite is completely different from the others? Yes. Yes. That can bring a lot of problems especially If one person believes that respect is the most important thing, while the other one thinks it's not about respect, it's about getting to the truth or it's about communication.

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So as long as they say it, some people will say, as long as I said it, it's OK. But somebody else would be like, no, no, no, You say that it's disrespectful. The way you say that is disrespectful. I think the issue comes when one spouse is not willing to change, so if one spouse in a nice way you've talked to them about how maybe it's disrespectful if they call your names or whatever or use some words, or maybe they are talking to your parents a certain way and they just

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don't want to change. That just tells you that you guys are losing their friendship, that teamwork. So now the issue becomes it's not about respect anymore, now it's about me and you fighting but we can create a situation where we can be respectful and still express that's what you want to express.

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And I've seen this in a couple we were working with, she is Christian, he was Muslim and they were able to have a great marriage but when they go back to where he comes from the family over there is Muslim. and she was supposed to cover her head with a hijab because that is a sign of respect.

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But it's not that she became a Muslim, it's because it's a sign of respect to those people and she was able to do that, cover herself because she wanted to be respectful to her in-laws. So she still maintained her religion but she was able to know that this is just a respect thing.

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Ladies in this family cover their head. So I would like to ask which tradition should Koppu now preserve? Thank you, thank you. This is another great question. And this happens a lot when you are having the situation where there's we call it a home field advantage, which is let's say I'm in America and married to somebody from America and now because she is in her own country, in her own culture they might say hold on you are coming here. You need to follow my culture so that country's culture should be the one to be followed

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But what we teach is when you go in your house, we need to have both cultures represented. So don't look down upon the other person because they came to your country and now they have to follow your culture in the house. No, we can find a way that both cultures are respected.

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and sometimes this can happen that we end up creating another culture. For example, in my family we created Tim Shire. Tim Shire is basically the culture that we have in our house because it's not American, it's not Kenyan, it's just the culture that we've created. And that makes it easy that both husband and wife can be hard because we've had couples because we are working with and the problem is, the one who's having a home-filled advantage, the one who's from that country might be saying you came here.

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You need to follow what we do here. I came here for whatever reason I came but because we decided to get married, I should not lose my identity. Another thing naming kids. That's a big one. Should we just forget one culture or should we balance the two? So for us, we did first name my wife chooses second name my culture is a name from my culture so that both cultures are represented not that one is forgotten because we are trying to we You are ignoring one culture.

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So languages, we can speak both. My kids can speak both English and my language. Why? Because we have to represent both. And this takes a lot of work and it goes back to that friendship because if there is no friendship some people will not be able to go through learning new language being okay that a new New language is spoken in the house, testing new foods, new recipes, new holidays.

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Oh my goodness! Some people will be like, no I can't do this. But that shows you that you are not willing to be curious to learn what your spouse is bringing into the marriage. So, Pesa I would like to ask this question. At what point does honoring your parents become allowing your parents to participate so deeply in your marriage?

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Okay, so this is where we talk about setting boundaries. So, yes you're honoring them, yes you are respectful but you know where the line is being crossed and the line that you brought up is they are participating in making decisions in your marriage Now we have to also be very careful. It goes both ways We deal with a lot of couples who are trying to say my father-in-law is telling me what to do My father-in-law is wanting to know all these things.

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My father-in-law is knowing, wanting to know all these things. Why? And then so they're having this argument but when we talk to them we find out that actually they have been taking loans from their father-in-law or their father-in-law they are living in one of their father-in-law's property or they are driving a car that the father-in-law gave and live your best marriage.

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So now all of a sudden you have to be very careful that sometimes you might be upset that they are coming into your marriage and telling you what to do and what not to do, but also be very careful how much you're accepting especially financial help because we found out that's That's a big problem. You are accepting so much and now they are also, because they have given you, they want to tell you what to do.

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We're not saying don't accept help but just know that it might come with strings attached. So now setting boundaries is very easy when you know that you're standing on your own two feet and saying no to some of the things they might be wanting, it's easier if you know that you can back it up which is saying I can maybe not accept some of what you're telling me because I can actually provide these things for myself so it's very complicated but I think the easiest here is be careful what you are accepting

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because you might actually be getting a partner, another person inside your marriage telling you how to raise your family. All right. I would love to ask this question. What are the warning signs that our side influence has gone too far? Oh, oh yeah. Those warning signs are there. Like it can start like things like every time There is a conversation, every time there's a conversation, there is somebody who already goes and tells.

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We discuss something in the marriage and maybe their wife or husband goes to talk to their mother just like that. And now they're getting advice from their mother for something we just had a conversation about or a few minutes ago, or no decision is made without going and asking the father or asking the mother.

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Those are just quick easy way to know that we are getting to a point where outside influence is getting too much. Another thing is what I had talked about accepting a lot of help. I'm not against accepting help but sometimes that can be a warning sign that you are accepting a lot of help, you might be careful.

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Another thing is especially if you're living close to each other your house is close to each other, you might find that they are coming to your house maybe they have a key to your and they are always coming and nobody even knows when they're coming. Maybe we've heard stories where they gave the key to their parents and they're always there and you want to have some time alone, but they're always coming.

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Another one is if somebody… if one person has their own language, you can find that they They are speaking their language and the wife is there or the husband is there But who doesn't understand that language? So it has been going on for a long time so they're having this side conversation And the spouse doesn't know Also like criticizing You may be an aunt, family is criticizing your spouse And you don't say anything about him you don't confront them, you don't say hey you don't talk about my wife like that or don't

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talk to my wife like that. Or somebody's always defending their parents' behavior or maybe the parent is beating up the kids, the parent is um there something is going on but somebody's always defending them, their parents does not cannot do anything wrong they're always being defended. Another one I think I think maybe sending money home, always sending money home and you are hiding it from your spouse So your spouse doesn't know that you're sending money home And if they ask about it, you get very upset I don't know what you're hiding

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I mean, so some of these things hiding that you are helping your side of the family, well there's nothing to hide because you're helping your side of the family. So those can be warning signs that we are having problems. All right. Thank you so much. Because of our time, how can our listener connect with you and explore more of your work?

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Thank you. Usually, they can come if they're on Instagram, they can always come to our website, or they can always go to art live your best marriage that's which is LIV, your best marriage that's on Instagram and they can send us DMs and they can follow us on Instagram but if If they want to learn where outside pressure might be affecting their marriage, if they wanna learn where they have cracks in their marriage and how their teamwork can be helped, they can always come to our website which is liveyourbestmarriage.com and they will find

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United Front quiz where they will be able to take the quiz two, three minutes. It's free and it's going to really help them know where they're weak in their marriage and what to do to make it better.

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All right, Perissa thank you so much for joining us on the Mind Over Habit podcast. Today conversation has reminded us that the health of relationship isn't determined only by and how much two people love each other. It is also shaped by the habit, the build, the habit of listening, the habit of communicating, the habit of protecting each other's dignity, the habit of setting healthy boundaries, the habit of revolving conflict instead of collecting resentment.

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And perhaps most importantly, the habit of remembering we are on the same thing. To everyone listening, here is something to think about. When pressure enters your relationship, do you turn towards each other or turn against each other? Because sometimes the greatest relationship breakthrough isn't something problem immediately. So it is remembering who you are supposed to face with problem I am Moses and this is the Mind Over Habit podcast Pesa, thank you once again for joining Thank you very much Moses And thank you for the great questions you asked They were very helpful

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It was a privilege to just have you here So Ana, to our listeners Until next time Keep learning, keep growing and keep building the habits that build stronger relationships.