Podcast appearance
528 | Bringing Unity in Marriage | Pesa Shayo
Aaron Porter and Pesa Shayo discuss marriage unity, the pressure exposed by in-law conflict, and boundaries that help spouses work together.
- Podcast
- Pirate Monk Podcast
- Host
- Aaron Porter
- Published
- Guest
- Pesa Shayo
Listen
Pirate Monk Podcast
Episode overview
About this conversation
Aaron Porter and Pesa Shayo discuss marriage unity, the pressure exposed by in-law conflict, and boundaries that help spouses work together.
The conversation covers how two spouses can both hold valid perspectives, what in-law conflict reveals, boundaries when outside factors are involved, the cost of divided loyalty, practical guidance for stronger unity, closing reflections and resources.
Key takeaways
Marriage principles discussed
- How two spouses can both hold valid perspectives.
- What in-law conflict reveals.
- Boundaries when outside factors are involved.
- The cost of divided loyalty.
- Practical guidance for stronger unity.
- Closing reflections and resources.
Chapters
Conversation chapters
Full transcript
Pirate Monk Podcast transcript
Transcript note: Published with permission and formatted for readability. This transcript was automatically generated from the original public recording or caption track. Speaker names are omitted where the source did not identify them, and minor transcription errors may remain.
00:00Introduction and guest background
Hey brothers, let me put something on your radar. The Samson Summit sponsored by Covenant Eyes is happening
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Here's my challenge to you. Don't come alone. Grab a couple of guys from your group or your
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To sign up, just head to samsungsociety.com
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By the way, if you want help connecting
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just drop us a line at piratemonthpodcast
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Don't miss this summit this year.
It is going to be great!
Welcome to the Pirate Monk Podcast. Well, apologies, uh, the last podcast you had only Nate because I had some kind of stomach flu and today he is out doing his husbandly duties to his wife for his wife as she continues her journey, her health journeys.
But I am looking forward to this conversation. When two people come together from different backgrounds, family expectations and life experiences, staying on the same team is rarely easy.
So joining us today is Pesa Shayo through Live Your Best Marriage and books like Questions for Diverse Couples.
Pesa has spent years helping partners navigate the unspoken tensions of in-laws cultural differences in modern stress.
He brings a grounded and calm approach to problem-solving that helps couples stop fighting each other
And start standing shoulder to shoulder. So Pesa, it's great to have you on the show. Welcome!
Thank you very much, Aaron. I'm very excited to be here today.
Well, I love marriage. Even through years of some very hard marriage stuff,
life. I experienced divorce going on seven years ago, and a publisher had wanted to write
a marriage book that I'd written when I was 25 years old that was really just for me but
they wanted to publish it, and I was sitting on a stationary bike editing it, re-editing
it the day my divorce papers came through. And I'm like this is just ridiculous. This is
like the weirdest thing ever.
But as I went back through those thoughts of my early self trying to figure out what is marriage,
what was God thinking?
What am I supposed to do?
I was kind of inspired by the young kid.
I mean, I had to throw out some stuff because I was 25 and stupid.
But I love marriage.
I'm always impressed by the young version of me, the young version, because they seem to
to know something that as time goes by, yes experience helps.
But sometimes experience takes away that excitement and you seem to know how things will not work
but you forget how things can work just like for example when you meet somebody who just
proposed and they are pursuing their fiancé as they're getting ready to get married.
They have this excitement and they just know how to pursue.
20 years later, the same guy will be looking at his wife and he'll be like,
I don't even want to look at her.
So something changed. They have more experience and they lost that excitement of pursuing.
And if only they had kept that a lot of problems would be avoided
because for some reason when you are in that excitement phase
You also see your wife as a friend not as an enemy
so you're able to give up more slack and benefit of doubt
and you're pretty much able to, more likely to listen to what she's talking about.
Okay so I'm thinking two things. First even thinking of having the opportunity to revisit my young self's head.
Yes.
And there was one guy that confronted me when I was writing this who is an elder at the church that I was pastoring
and he took me out to lunch and was angry. He's like why should anyone listen to you?
you are looking forward to seeing her but now many years later you can't even stand being in the same room with her
so, in a way you have replaced her with a lot of other things. So just a quick thing
on your way home when in the pursuit it's easy to call and send a message say hey I'm on my way home
but i can't wait to see you da-da-da it's so easy but when in the anger after many years
It's like the idea that you leave and call, you start saying I don't want to bother her.
The kids are doing this. I'm busy at the office. It's too much work. So you have all these reasons
why a two-minute call with a smile saying hey I can't wait to come and see you tonight becomes
so much over. Too much of work! So sometimes even just remembering some of the little things
that you were doing back then and try to incorporate them now. I understand there's
There's a lot of resentment, things that you had planned never came out.
It's life.
I always remember that book, Death of a Salesman and Willie Lohmann had a lot of things which
07:01How two spouses can both hold valid perspectives
he wanted to achieve but by the time we were reading the book he was very angry.
Yeah yeah.
I remember being depressed by that book in high school.
So imagine their marriage, the wife is angry, she's angry like everything is not going well
Also, it's not the same person. After many years she also has had her disappointments too
So she also might not be looking forward to having this conversation
Maybe she's busy at work
But I'm sure there are always ways to make it work
As long as you remember that she is a friend, not an enemy
All right now we're going to circle back to that
But I want to say this podcast is to bring hope to those who are in a Willie Lohman marriage
Yes, yes
That's gonna be our new phrase for these folks
but I want to take this all the way back before we get back to the practicals and we will get to the practicals
But I am always curious and fascinated by people of any other culture which can be cultures within America or around the world
What were your hopes and dreams an idea of marriage relationship growing up in Kenya?
How long did you live there before you came to America?
So I lived there for 22-23 years before I came over and back then, I don't really think I had any hopes of marriage.
The only thing I remember was that I would see my dad come home. He was a salesman so he was selling tractors, massive Ferguson tractors.
Always not…he was never at home but not in a bad way. We never really thought about it as a bad way. It was basically he's out there working.
One thing I remember is he was such a hard worker and between him and his brothers, my uncles,
it was very clear like a good man had to work hard and they have to provide. Let me tell you one thing
when growing up i could not imagine that a man can be home before like 9 or 10 pm so
It's either they are working or they're in a bar drinking, making deals.
I don't know what the deals were making but that is just how things were.
And the story was a man should not come home when the chickens are coming home.
If a man is coming home before the chickens come home he's not seen as a real man.
and two, the idea that you are coming home before the chicken roost means you are not willing
in dealing.
You're not making things happen in the community.
You are just like what kind of man are you?
So there was that thing in the back of my mind when even when I got married that what
I was needed to do is I needed to work.
And I mean I'm telling you there were times I was working as a nurse it was double shift
3 to 11, 11 to 7, 3 to 11, 11 to 7, 7 like 6 days a week.
So in the morning I'm sleeping at home, in the afternoon 2 to 11 working, 11 to 7.
And because I had so many friends from my country doing the same thing,
we actually took it as a badge of honor.
We would just sit there talking about how we are great men and how other men are lazy.
And how was your young bride coming into this Kenyan norm?
So that's where the problem comes because she is complaining every day how I'm not at home
and she's having to basically raise the kids alone. And when I go and tell my friends,
it's always the same answer. She's ungrateful if only she was from Africa. Really things which are
not helpful to help you with your marriage but you're getting that advice so much
to the point where you start believing it. You know, if only she was,
only I could get, I got the right one really understand and who understands and is not
ungrateful. She's suffering. I don't understand this concept of emotions. I believe in only
sacrifice. She, I feel like she's not accepting like appreciating my sacrifice and she's trying
to talk about emotions which I don't even know what that is and people are going ask we are so
is so much bravado and we feel like we are doing so well, but we also going through divorces.
So you're talking about a Kenyan kind of machismo?
Yes.
That puts on a front of strength, emotions are weak, just dig down and do it and that's your job.
Just the tea job, yes.
So what you describe definitely goes into what I've heard you talk about which is how problems often
and become couples facing each other and making the other person the enemy instead of learning
how to say there's a problem here, let's be on the same team and point at the problem.
Talk to me about when that started changing in your head because obviously you're having
to overcome your own cultural hurdles and assumptions to find that with your wife.
So where did that start?
How did it progress?
Give me that story.
After about 10 years of marriage, our sad baby was just a little girl and she's like,
give me the papers. I will sign them. I don't care. I'm ready to be out. I gotta go.
And I say thank God because that had nothing to do with me.
I don't know why I paused and it really hit me that I don't want to
be having this situation where I'm going to pick up my kids from somebody else's house
and all that which was just not gonna work for me.
I don't know why I paused but I thank God
I was able to pause, listen to what she was talking about
and really realize that she is actually living
And also the idea that I'm going to go and tell my mom
and my sisters that I'm going through a divorce
For some reason that just did not work out for me
I didn't see how it's gonna work
We were Christians, I was raised a Catholic
She was raised Baptist
but we were not going to charge because it just didn't seem as something important
14:02What in-law conflict reveals
but we started going to charge and thank God they had a small group there,
like a couple of small groups where we were able to attend more of that.
But yes the small group helped
but it's mostly the idea that I need to do something for my marriage
so I started reading books like Love & Respect
and just starting to appreciate that whatever I think
because for some reason I used to think like what I'm thinking in my mind is what it is.
Like, I could not appreciate that somebody else had another point of view which they could be right and I could be right
but we have two different points of view.
I could not even get that.
I was able to start, I guess growing and start appreciating all this that she was right
I was right and we needed to figure out the best way to move forward.
So that's where we even started this team Shayo.
Team Shayo is basically like she has her way
I have my way, but we have our little team which is our way of doing things.
That really helped us and we have started with Team Shayo is the third way.
There's your way, there's her way, and then how we blend those?
That's our team.
Yes.
So we always do things as Team Shayo.
Being able to create our little culture in the home has really helped us appreciate.
For example, I had no sense of Thanksgiving, like a Thanksgiving holiday was new to me.
For her she knew that this is what we do for Thanksgiving.
So now there's…we have to create our Thanksgiving where we have our own type of meal so that
we are blending two cultures dealing with somebody who didn't even grow up having a Thanksgiving
dinner.
Things like that…
Well, and that's I mean, that's a great example though because she could say dude, I get it. You're from Kenya
But we don't need to blend cultures here. This is an American thing. Get on board Buster. We're having turkey and stuffing
Yes, but Team Shayo's like no there's another person here
Yes
But I do want to ask because you said okay
you're starting to realize, I can be right and she can be right.
Yes.
Which is not the same thing as let's agree to disagree, which I usually hate.
Usually that's, let's sweep it under the rug and just move on and not talk about it.
So it's almost saying the same thing except it's not creating a team,
it's furthering the bitterness because we're just going to have an added group of
stacked up bunch of stuff that we're agreeing to disagree about.
Always in the background.
Sometimes it's not that hard, but you still have…
I think the fact that you're on the same team makes it easier.
I'm not saying it's not hard.
There are some times there's going to be a lot of yelling and everything,
but when you really at the end of the day realizing that,
hey, you know what?
I don't want to lose you
and let's figure out the best way to move forward here.
And it works.
There's a number of things
that are fighting all of our marriages
trying to keep us from being teams.
Yes.
and some of the ones that you already talked about can be cultural.
And that doesn't even mean people from other countries.
My wife's from Italy, but was mostly raised in the United States.
But I certainly get being around her mom who is very Italian and brothers and sisters, their
communication style is very different.
I enjoy it a great deal, but it also trickles into the marriage communication just a very
and a different volume level in that house than the house I grew up in.
And it's fascinating, but you've also got on top of that in-laws that can come to play in
that teamwork where they're coming in and trying to be the coach or the team is the best way
I could think to put it.
Nobody made you the coach of our team, but you keep coaching it!
Tell me about how to navigate that piece that for some can be problematic.
right. That and we always say, and this took us a while to really get this. Like one story
we talk about is when our first daughter was being born, we had two different expectations.
She knew that because she's the mom and she gave birth, she has the right to name her baby.
It's her baby, she's going to name her baby. Great! But I'm coming from a point where I
We have all my family here waiting because they know it's a girl.
That means, it's going to be my grandma.
So we are naming after family members.
So basically, my grandma has been born again.
Okay?
So now we got a problem.
Somebody here thinks it's her right and she makes 100% sense.
And even if you go to any counselor, they'll be like, yeah, it's your baby.
Name me your baby!
But he also have the in-laws who are saying…
My family who are saying, we have to name her.
with your grandmother who is going to be born and we need to name her.
So that was a very hard situation, and they needed a lot of peace making.
Peace making on my side of the family, and at the same time with her, to come up with
a compromise.
And there was a time she was talking to my mom and she had just told her, hey me and Pesa
have decided that I'm gonna pick the first name you guys will pick the second name.
and my mom would say, hey no problem I'll wait for Pesa to come and then he's gonna tell me.
At that time basically it hit her because she was like okay there is nothing I'm not lying
I'm not lying to you. He told me this is how we're going to do it but my mom is coming from
a point of view that her son will side with her so in a way she knows that we are not united
She knows there's two answers to that quest, my side and my wife's side.
Yeah.
Is what we call… And that's where we even got the whole concept of United Front
because most people talk about, oh it's the in-laws problem but no, no, it's not the in-laws.
The in-laws are able to figure out that you guys are not united
and that gap in between you is where they always come in.
Yes okay say that again, that's really important.
21:03Boundaries when outside factors are involved
and the family knew that me and my wife were on the same team, on the same team at all times.
She won't even say okay I'll talk to my son.
She will know the answer from my wife and the son is the same answer.
The fact that she said that showed everything that she was thinking which is that you weren't
on the same team or she never would have said it but I'm assuming that it's your responsibility
to make that clear to your family.
It's her responsibility to make that clear to her family.
Yes.
But there is a problem for Christians in this.
By the way, what was your grandma's name?
Because I can't…
I gotta know.
Ciaosico and we still are able to name her.
My middle name is Ciaosico.
Ciaosico.
It still worked out but it also showed us
that we were not on the same team.
Yeah.
Okay.
Ciaosico.
I was going to keep having that running around in my head, not knowing how it's going to bother me for the rest of our time
So here's the problem that I can picture if say I'm you in that situation
And I'm thinking okay. This is this is part of how we honor my grandmother
This is how I honor my parents
Yeah
By having her and the Bible says that I'm supposed to make top 10
attached to that as well.
Yes, because we have two things that we always deal with at Live Your Best Marriage.
There is the you will live and cleave and two become one.
So there's that issue that we have created this new unit, new family.
The two of us became one but on the other hand coming from a collective family, collectivist family
We also have in the Ten Commandments we are supposed to honor and respect our parents
So now we have two issues here. Which one am I gonna do? Am I gonna live in Cleve? Yes, that's what everybody will teach me.
Cut them off because we were able to live in Cleve now. We have our new little unit here.
So everybody would be teaching me too. They are disobeying if they're not talking good to you.
Cut them off because you have a new unit.
But to some people, the commandment of being able to honor your father and mother so you
can have a long life is also a thing.
And you don't want to ignore that too.
So now we have to have a situation where you have to grow to be able to balance those two
things.
And we believe having that united front, being on the same team and then being respectful.
We found out even sometimes…
We believe that the child, if it's on my side of the family, I'm the one who is supposed to talk.
But after we have agreed with my wife.
Because we don't want a situation where a woman, a lady has been married into her family
and now she's the one fighting with my sisters
and now she's seen as the new person who's showing up here and telling us what to do.
So we have to be respectful of that because now she's being made as the bad one.
I guess after we talk, now it's my responsibility to handle that situation.
And if I find them that they are making jokes of her, like jokes,
let's say they're making jokes or they are disrespecting her,
I don't need to hide it. She needs to know but at the same time
I need to handle it and say okay this is my wife
and this is the one I chose and this is how it's going to be.
I'm backing her up in the same way she's going to back me up
if her side of the family are doing the same thing because we're on the same team.
So tell me how this plays into it for you. This is how I've seen it from my life and in conversations with others
that problems come when parents start trying to take authority over things that they don't have the
responsibility for so i have responsibility for how i'm raising my kid yes for the choices i'm making
yes i have that responsibility so i cannot give them the authority over those decisions because
because they don't have the responsibility.
They can have an opinion and I can respectfully listen,
and then if they're pushing into,
I'm trying to make you do it,
it's like whoa, now you're taking authority
and that's me and my wife here.
So talk to me about how that plays
into what you just discussed.
So I think in America it's harder to set boundaries
and I believe like just from my experience
harder because most people already in a marriage, already taking a lot of either financial help,
mostly financial help from their in-law. So if I'm already taking a loan from my father-in-law,
if he paid for my marriage, if he gave me a place to stay and things like that, the problem with
that basically everything has already been built into the system where he feels that he has a say
because he paid for some of these things.
He paid for the marriage.
Yeah.
So, he's coming because I see in other families,
or he gave money for the down payment.
And then he gave 50% for the down payment
of the house to help us out,
to help a couple out.
But at the same time we are telling him
he has no say when he is suggesting
how we need to take care of the lawn
or he's suggesting that the roof needs to be,
There's too much leaves in the gutter. He's driving by and he's telling me like, hey, you know, there's too much leaves on that gutter
We need to do something about it or more they grow more the lawn
It's hard for in that situation where if I've already taken money from him or I always go to him getting loans
so before we even
having this conversational boundaries also
Before we do this
We also have to say how much am I accepting from him in terms of help?
If I'm accepting help all the time, it might be hard to set a boundary.
So I need to be strong first, maybe work extra,
have like my family live and cleave
and not just constantly believing in my father-in-law's basement.
And then now I can show that I'm taking care of his daughter.
I can get his advice but I don't need him to tell me what to do.
That's a huge but hard thing because we're so wired to take the shortest path.
28:05The cost of divided loyalty
Yes.
But it costs, and I remember… I don't think my dad would mind me talking about this.
He passed away, but I'm still thinking he'd have an opinion about it.
My parents wanted to help me and my ex when we had our second child. They were like,
Hey, my dad always liked camping anyways. He's like I want to buy a big fifth wheel, build a shed,
we're gonna put it on the back of the property you guys just take the house and then you can save
and just you don't have to worry about that and I immediately was like nope nope and my ex
was like that'd be amazing! I mean think of what will save? I'm like I'm thinking about
what it's going to cost like it's gonna cost yeah and that led like so much effort when
and it ends up happening. And I'm like, my word, okay fine let my words be prophecy and
may my prophecies be wrong but they're not gonna be. And after all the effort to do it,
it lasted a year before it was like, okay, I can't do this! We don't get what we want as
quickly but it's costing way too much. And man do we need good wise counselors in our lives
to
because back in the day when people would come and you didn't feel like they're intruding
so it felt like that's just how things are. And especially when we didn't have cell phones as much
as we do now, my mom will just cook extra because you just never know who's gonna pop in.
We didn't feel like they're intruding and life was just great but I feel like when we bring up
the issue of boundaries is like when you're feeling like okay hold on they are really
getting into my space, I need to draw a line.
But if there's no feeling that they are getting
into your space, everybody is just having
a great time, life is good, nobody's even
bringing up the issue of boundaries.
But I feel like in America, everybody's talking,
we're talking a lot about like, I need to have my space
but if I'm already taking on the other side,
on the other arm hand I'm taking it's hard
to say no to somebody that you're already
indented to especially financial.
We like every time your father-in-law is paying for your wedding, this doesn't make me very popular.
But it makes it harder.
Maybe we could even draw that out to a bigger generalization that whenever money is involved, you need to really figure out what the cost is.
Yes.
For that free money. Tell me this. Oh yeah go ahead.
and I like what you're saying, the cost.
Because sometimes we just think about what we are getting but we never think how much we're gonna pay for it.
And how that's going to mess with your team, you and your wife's team?
Team yes.
Basically they're buying a box seat in the dugout.
Yep.
And you're like well now I got a person in the dugout.
I thought it was just our team in the dugout.
We've got other people in the dugout.
Yes.
This is great. Our metaphors are amazing today.
I am curious though, now circling back around to the naming of your daughter
Yes
So everything was going good and your mom was almost taking the path of least resistance to get what she wanted
by being friendly to your wife but saying
I'll finish this conversation with my son
He'll take care of you
Again that's a spot you had to draw a boundary I assume
So how did you do that?
Naturally, I'm a peacemaker.
So I was able to draw the boundary in a way saying that hey we have to listen
We have to work with her in terms of she's getting the first name
We are getting the last name which is Shayo
And then we're also getting their middle name which is my grandma's name
so I literally had to make her see her and my side of the family
See how that's gonna work
at the end of the day, she and my side of the family don't have to make that decision.
We are basically in a way informing them but we will be the ones signing that birth certificate so
we're just informing them but we will still be the ones to make their decision which is
the way we told them. So team Shayo there is a difference between informing other people
when you're life in-laws, parents, informing them versus defending yourself as if, hey I'm
going to say this and then you can argue back and then I'll defend myself. That becomes a
mess so I love what you're saying.
And that is very important where they realize that you are standing on your own two feet,
you are respecting them but at the same time you are making your own decisions. So you are
and you're always respecting where they are coming from, but you have your own house,
your own kids, like your own family.
So you have your little unit going on so you still will make your own decisions because
the truth is there's no paying you rent.
See that's why I always go back to how much financial help are you getting?
That will complicate the whole situation.
You can't stand on your own two feet and then later a member of your team is going back
and asking for rent money while you are trying to set boundaries. You have to be on the same
team, which means even if it means that somebody has to work extra or find out a different way
to come up with the funds other than just constantly going and getting it from the people you are
trying to set boundaries with.
Yeah, and let's be really compassionate here. There are situations and times where it feels
35:06Practical guidance for stronger unity
and the kids need to be on the same page.
So what happens if they can't get on the same page?
So let's say, they need to both be working so that they're not being indebted but then
they need mother-in-law to watch the kids and she's got certain ways.
She is dealing with the kids.
So if they have different views, say the dad is like I do not like the way your mother is
is doing this with kids and we need to put our foot down.
But then the mom's like, hey I don't have to be doing this.
I'm doing you a favor.
And wife is going like she's gonna bail.
She has to do it.
We need her.
How does the team get on the same team
in a situation like that?
Especially when it's got real life implications.
It's not just philosophical.
And I always get to that point where
you cannot set boundaries if you are not strong
to enforce the boundaries.
and I'm not one person who is looking for a fight, but at the same time if let's say in this situation
the mother-in-law is like you know what? I really don't need to do this. I'm also taking
time from work to be watching your kids and you are telling me what to do in my own house basically
she's also setting her own boundaries she's saying you're not gonna come and tell me that i'm not
going to give my grandkids candy and that's my job to spoil them right they will say that yeah oh yeah
So now it becomes like we come to a head. Sometimes we have found out that it's easier maybe going and talking to
her husband, and then he's gonna talk to her. That has worked a lot in a lot of couples where they're
like okay you know what if the problem is there is if the problem is the father-in-law maybe the mom
can talk to him on the side and calm him down so that we don't have a meeting because sometimes
Sometimes even having a family meeting can make the tensions right
But if we find a way to go around it and the wife talks to him or the husband talks to her
things might come down and we might not even need to have a meeting
That's ideal
There is also the gratitude piece
Even as you're talking, I'm thinking of the entitlement of children that just feel like
You are the grandparent. Why wouldn't you do this?
Why would you help out? Why wouldn't you give money?
It's just entitlement
Instead of leading with a lot of gratitude, like you don't have to be doing that. You have your own life
You raised your own kids now you're helping with mine
I feel like if I can't develop and cultivate that heart of gratitude yes, then any boundaries
I'm setting I'm kind of just being an asshole because they are giving up themselves. Yep
They're doing it in a way
I don't like but there's still giving of themselves and so to have that conversation
conversation, I've got to have in my heart, okay this is your time and your life that you're spending on my life.
And you have to remember that most of the time she could be doing whatever. She could be at work,
she could be at her friends having a conversation, she could be doing anything she wanted.
She could be learning pickleball! It's the perfect age.
Yes!
She's deciding to keep in so that I can accomplish my goals which is to pay down on our debt because
both of us need to go and work.
So she's keeping in, and we can find a way to make it work.
So I think coming from a point of being grateful and always finding a way to smoothen the whole
conversation so that it doesn't come across as you are wronged and we're setting boundaries
right now and how dare you do that. That will just bring more and more city.
That's where you're crossing the line again, that important where am I not honoring my father
and mother? If I'm now taking authority over them in that kind of inappropriate way then
I'm not honoring. You are not.
The gratitude, all of that can exist while making boundaries still being gracious.
and if they don't want to accept those boundaries, that's okay.
I'm not very good at pithy statements.
I usually just make up random metaphors that only slightly makes sense.
But one of my favorites is that boundaries without consequences are just suggestions.
Yes.
So if they don't want to accept a boundary then
I have to accept that I have to hold the boundary
and figure out somewhere else to take the kids
if it's that important to my team.
Yes, and that's why it's important as a team to have this conversation and have these all scenarios.
You play other scenarios before you have this boundary conversation because if they call you
a bluff, you have to say okay thank you we really respect you but we are not bringing her next week
but it's not because we are mad at you but we just don't like when she's here with you
she's watching those shows something like that but you should be also able to stand on your
So we're not going to do this, but you'll still hang out with them. It will be great, but just not in this way.
Man, we're making everything sound so easy.
Because it always goes back to are you on the same team?
I mean, can I… Do I see her as a friend?
Because these conversations if she's doing side deals and I'm doing side deals, we cannot have this conversation because it takes so much growth.
So how do you broach that? If you've been separate, you've not been on the same team, you've both been doing side deals
42:07Closing reflections and resources
and then it comes back to the other person finds out about it. They feel, you know, it feels like betrayal if somebody's doing side deals on you
How do you take the first steps into going to your spouse and being like hey I guess repentance
Hey we have not been on the same team. Here's where I see my responsibility is
It's not going to happen in a day, but if you have that long-term view, like you know that
view you had when you were getting married.
If you have that long-term view and you know okay we're gonna work through this.
I think when you are having dead days or dead nights and spending more time together and
so they can see that you are genuine.
Yeah it's gonna take time, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it.
But I think the more they see that you are treating them as a friend and you are genuine
sometimes they are waiting for you to mess up again.
So they don't want to commit too much and then get disappointed again as usual
So do you start with like a small thing and say like, okay so we've got maybe this financial
thing and I want us to be on the same team.
So whatever comes from the outside we know this is our deal
So do you pick like A thing and kind of play it seems like you gotta play with it to find
out who your team is if you haven't had a team
Yes you got us the fact that it's your wife so that makes it easy because you go no this
This is a want me and her to be on one team.
But we have so much baggage of so many years, it's not just going to happen in one day.
But I'm starting to talk about us as a team, Team Porter.
We are just talking…I'm talking as a team.
Now there are some things which maybe we have never done.
Maybe we haven't gone for dates together.
So you can say okay, maybe you start going just to show that you are favoring being close
to her.
Again she might not like it.
She might be like, I know what you've been doing.
I don't like this.
But after a while if she sees that you are sincere, that's going to take several months.
She must start getting around to it but don't give up because nothing comes easy.
Don't give up and then eventually I believe if she can see that you have changed and that's
the big one here people start realizing okay I'm getting a different energy from him so
I will also adjust my anger.
Well, and the anger is just defense, right?
I'm making sure I don't get hurt again.
If I feel safe, I don't need that.
It's much easier to lower that.
And let's be honest that it's not…
Usually if the team is not happening, number one, you might not even know what sport you're
playing when you begin these conversations.
So that's rough.
Like, let's be a team.
What kind of balls and equipment do we need to pick out?
but it's not usually just one person and so there has to be some modeling. I mean if
i'm serious and i want a teen, i gotta model it and be clear like hey i was gonna do this
but before i did it i wanted to check in with you and see what our team is doing on this
and that helps the other person understand hey this one i'm hoping for with you that we can
have conversations before decisions are made and we just come and say yeah hey i just did
with this thing and the other person's like, I thought we were a team.
Yep.
Because especially when with close culture, like interracial couples,
that can be a big problem because they're like, oh, we had that issue.
I get a call from an uncle.
I send, they ask for money which happens all the time.
I send because they are in a bind so I send it quickly
and then later she finds out from looking at the bank account
like, oh my God what happened here?
Oh you know what?
I forgot to tell you, I sent. So now it's like what else are you hiding? To me it's like
I'm helping. To her it's like what I'm hiding.
Again, feels like betrayal.
Yeah.
It feels secret, feels hidden.
And then for me and then to me it's like hey, you mean you don't want me to help my family?
You know so now we…
Oh man yeah, now you've twisted into what kind of… Now you're gaslighting the place up.
She's about to blow!
I gotta tell you how this makes you a bad person.
Yeah. Well, Pesa we could go on and on. I feel like we have barely scratched the surface
and yet we have come to the end of our time. We've been talking for like an hour.
I can't believe it.
So how do people find out more about what you're doing and what you're teaching,
the things you're writing? Where do they go?
They can go to liveyourbestmarriage.com so it's L-I-V-E, you are best marriage dot com
and there we have what we call a United Front quiz. It's two, three minutes they can answer some
questions and what they will find out is how united they are and then now they'll also get
results on what they really need to work on to eventually become more united because we believe
if as a couple you're not united it's so easy to split you because there's already
a gap between the two of you. Okay so that's where they go and they will find out and
and they can see the books and things there as well.
Yes, everything is there.
Listeners, you know if you have questions, thoughts,
want to get a hold of us, send that to piratepodcastgmail.com.
And that is all the time we have for today but Pesa, thank you so much.
This was just a lot of fun.
Love getting to hear your thoughts and your stories.
It was great.
Thank you very much.
And we are keeping Nate's wife in our prayers.
Thank you. Well, listeners until next time we are your pals here on the Pirate Monk podcast.
Hey brothers let me put something on your radar. The Samson Summit sponsored by Covenant Eyes is
happening this October it's Friday through Sunday October 23rd to 25th at a beautiful conference
center in Michigan with keynote speaker John Lynch and the kind of brotherhood that you just
can't get in a one-hour meeting or through a screen and if you want to come early to hang
and with Samson leaders from around the country, there is an optional warm-up day on Thursday.
And here's my challenge to you. Don't come alone. Grab a couple of guys from your group
or your area and make it a road trip because let's be honest, there's nothing better than
a road trip with your brothers or see how many men from your online meeting you can rally
to be their in person for a real face-to-face get together.
And if you can't make the drive or swing the flight this year, you can still join the whole
society. Send your feedback or questions to piratemonkpodcast.gmail.com. Please give us
a 5 star review on iTunes and share the podcast with a friend. For more information, please
visit samsungsociety.com.
Credits and links
About this podcast appearance
Pirate Monk Podcast is hosted by Aaron Porter. This page remains connected to the original public episode.
Learn more about Pesa Shayo, explore his books, or see more podcast appearances. Marriage resources are available from Live Your Best Marriage.